Posted on 11/24/2001 4:17:58 AM PST by chemicalman
Edited on 07/14/2004 12:58:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Q. Do Jews believe in an afterlife?
A. "As many Jews as there are, there are that many opinions," said Rabbi David Goldstein of Touro Synagogue.
However monolithic Judaism might look from a distance, it contains a good deal of diversity of thought even on a question one might think as basic as whether anything lies beyond the grave -- which, incidentally, is not a question of great concern in most of Judaism, he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at nola.com ...
I believe that it was Samuel who appeared to Saul in 1 Samuel Chap 28 after he had died. They did not believe in an afterlife? From where came Samuel? If I went through the OT, I could probably come up with a number of references regarding the afterlife, but I don't have the time for that.
In a way, God did create imperfect beings. He gave man free will. Man had the choice to follow God or not. Mankind still has that choice today. And today, as then, we still create manmade religions, our own philosphies, and our own logic. We still live for ourselves. We believe in eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we go to the grave where we will just dissapate into nothingness, or we teach that we will just evolve into a higher consciousness until we reach a plateau where our higher consciousness blends into the great, universal being, and we will think no more our own thoughts, our own desires. We will just be an unthinking miniscule dot in a great universal creation. We think that we will just cease to exist because we cannot stretch our minds to include ourselves into infinity. We limit the working of God in our lives because we do not have the imagination to allow Him to work in us. Who is the poorer for this?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I do believe that this is exactly what "orthodox Christianity" states: There is a God and He gave us souls which do continue to exist after our "physical representation ceases to be". If I am wrong... what them do you percieve "orthodox Christianity" to be?
I think that you just said a mouthful.
However, as made clear in the books Mystery Babylon the Great and Mystery Babylon and the Lost Ten Tribes in the End Time 'Christianity' as a whole is based on the Babylonian Mysteries. Therefore, there are many deadly, deceitful tenants mingled with the truth of the Holy Scriptures eschatology to be found in Revelation, a book of a mixture of truth and falsehood.
When it comes to salvation and eternal life, the New Testament follows the formula of the great Mystery religions 2 of Mesopotamia.
The details of the "afterlife" were a prominent feature of the Mysteries. Promises of eternal life and an outline of what one would be doing in that other world occupied a great deal of their religious writings.
Within the Egyptian Mysteries, for instance, one could take their physical material blessings with them into the "afterlife." This feature was found, in varying degrees and forms, in most of the other branches of the Mysteries. Because 'Christianity' is but another branch of that ancient pagan theology, as expected its teaching of an afterlife, features prominently in 'Christianity.' 3 The message throughout the New Testament is clear: a 'Christian' can expect more rewards if he or she is a better servant of "J-sus Chr-st." In effect, one can take the fruits of this material world with one into the next world.
(What exactly is Mystery Babylon and why does this Jewish site reference it? http://www.uhcg.org/HoI/Salvation-in-OT.html)
It is clear that the level of evidence presented for the truth of the claims of Jesus in insufficient for you to accept them. OK, no religion has made a case strong enough to convince you.
Let me ask you your opinion on this one question: Of all the religions every believed in, given all you know of history and everything else, IF there is a God who deigns to communicate to mankind, which historical figure do you think he was most likely to have used? I understand that you do not beleive a positive case has been made for any of them,I just want your opinion as to who has the BEST case.
I didn't mean that it was inconsistent with Christianity. However, it seems a stretch to get from this concept of God and souls to the concepts of the Trinity, creation, original sin, blood sacrifices for expiation of sin, prophecies of the Messiah, virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection, ascension of Jesus, descent of the Holy Spirit, etc. to say nothing of sole fides, the immaculate conception of Mary, or the infallibility of the Pope.
Except there are consequences. Here in this life, If you steal, you go to jail etc.
The village of Nazareth didn't even exist until a few centuries later, IIRC.
Come now, there are many passages in the Old Testament (Tenach - sp?) that point to man's hope in the resurrection. You acknowledged Pslam 23 (written around 1000 BC) and you already read the reference in Daniel (penned around 600 BC). In addition you see the faith displayed by Job (believed to pre-date Abraham), who (in Chapter 19) states how he knows his Redeemer Liveth and that he'll see him with his own eyes in the latter days. I reject your contention that belief in the afterlife 'did not have much currency' in the time of Jesus. This certainly would not have been the case amongst those who were rigorous in their scripture studies - as would be the Pharisees.
Just as you can point to that line in the Bible, I can point to the fact that stoning over adultery had faded as a practice before Jesus' time, yet the Bible has the story about him intervening to save someone from stoning.
You say 'faded'. That's a loaded word. It doesn't mean that it ceased, just that it was no longer common. Given that stoning over adultery goes on even today - I have no reason to disbelief the Biblical account (not that I'd disbelieve it anyways).
I don't debate there was a longing to dwell with God, and that the heroes of Judaism had special status and could live with God. I'm just pointing to the fact that an eternal afterlife was simply not a part of Judaism until much later.
To which we are in disagreement. Or at the very least - it was plainly spoken of in the scriptures, however if the popular sentiment was to reject these words - I can't argue that point. I obviously was not around in the time and place we speak of; however if I look at where we are today - the popular sentiment of the humanistic culture in which we live is to reject the Word. So if future judge were to look back at America and claim that we rejected the Word - I couldn't dispute it.
As for Buddhist ideas being of Satan, that sounds ridiculous.
If it steers one away from the saving grace of God, through the atoning blood of Christ Jesus - yes it is of Satan. Satan, the father of lies, told our parents, Adam and Eve, that 'ye can be like gods' - if they listened to him. Many religons through their doctrines of reincarnation, and 'self-perfecting' exercise repeat this lie.
Surely the idea that one man can bear the punishment for the sins of another, the idea of blood sacrifice are barbarities and of Satan, also?
One man maybe. But not Immanuel - 'God with Us'. Jehovah alone saves - and He who was rich became poor for us; and He who knew no sin, became sin for us. Fulfilling the promise to Eve that her seed would crush the head of the serpent. As God sacrificed a beast to make a covering (skins) for Adam and Eve when they were banished from the garden, He also sacrificed His only son to make a sin covering for us that we might enter into His Kingdom. The system of blood sacrifices (begun by Abel - the good son) was merely a sign pointing the the final blood sacrifice.
That a God would knowingly create imperfect beings
Adam and Eve were made perfect with a free will. Through pride they sinned, and we all have inherited that sin. God, through his mercy, has provided a way out for us sinners. The cost wasn't free - but God, who is love, gave His only begottened son so that we might live.
and then drown all the world's living things despite the fact he could simply vaporize all of the truly evil ones,
Vaporize versus flood - what's the big difference? Both equally effective, but God's plans included using water judgement in this case.
is the product of a primitive mind(unable to understand what omnipotence would really mean) ?
And I thank God that I have a primitive mind.
1 Cor 1:18-24
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
If your life is "sorry and empty", then you are the one who may need help. If your own faith is so inadequate that you feel the need to publicly attack the tenets of others without cause, calling them "callous and unfulfilling", rather than promoting those of your own, then you may need to reexamine your own faith, your own emotional stability or your own character.
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