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How can a "non-superpower" have a sub like the Kursk?
Self | Nov 25, 2001 | The Duke

Posted on 11/25/2001 9:03:32 AM PST by The Duke

I've been watching Tony Snow this morning on the Fox News channel interview supposed military affairs expert Dr. Ken Adelman about current world events. As the two went out of their way to denegrate the significance of Russia on the world stage, I couldn't help but ponder for a moment the ambition that is required for any nation to produce a submarine like the Kursk.

I also find it interesting how any pundit who discusses the "once-superpower" status of Russia seems to squirm just the tiniest bit.

One finds oneself wondering in what other dangerous areas the Russians continue to expand militarily...and exactly to what extent Russia has in reality become less of a threat to the US(?)


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Perhaps fellow Freepers could provide some enlightenment?
1 posted on 11/25/2001 9:03:32 AM PST by The Duke
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To: The Duke
"Trust but Verify" !!! "Trust but Verify" !!! "Trust but Verify" !!! "Trust but Verify" !!! etc., etc., etc. !!!
2 posted on 11/25/2001 9:08:40 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: The Duke
If they were still a superpower, they might be able to afford the maintenence on those subs.
3 posted on 11/25/2001 9:09:49 AM PST by eno_
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To: The Duke
Many of their toys are falling apart from lack of maintenance.
4 posted on 11/25/2001 9:12:45 AM PST by KirklandJunction
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To: GeekDejure
You called?
5 posted on 11/25/2001 9:13:31 AM PST by Trust but Verify
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To: KirklandJunction
Many of their toys are falling apart from lack of maintenance.

But how do we really know that? I mean, am I supposed to believe Dan Rather on this!? Also, why would a nation in such a state produce a nice, new, nationkiller sub?

It just doesn't all add up to me.

6 posted on 11/25/2001 9:14:44 AM PST by The Duke
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To: The Duke
How can a "non-superpower" have had a sub like the Kursk?
7 posted on 11/25/2001 9:17:30 AM PST by Trust but Verify
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To: The Duke
Russian has some of the finest scientific minds on the planet. If these minds can be turned to something constructive there is no end to where it can lead. Space travel, missile defense, modern medicine, technology. It is just plain stupid to think that the economic situation has suddenly dulled the fine minds that are Russian.

It's one of the reasons I'm so glad that our president has developed a relationship with Putin. All that mental ability should be turned to something constructive.

8 posted on 11/25/2001 9:18:06 AM PST by McGavin999
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To: The Duke
I never understood why a country with 10,000 nuclear warheads no longer fits the definition of a "superpower".
9 posted on 11/25/2001 9:18:11 AM PST by putupon
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To: The Duke
There's no question that the Russians have enough nuclear warheads to destroy the world several times over, as do we. The thing is, those arsenals are not useful in any ordinary circumstances.

Russia still has a large army, navy, and air force as well. But I believe the Gulf War proved that their conventional armor and other equipment is significantly inferior to ours. So the prospect that they could come through the Fulda Gap and overwhelm Europe with conventional weapons and huge numbers is much less than it used to be.

I certainly believe in the principle of trust but verify, or rather, never trust to the point of giving your whole security into anyone's hands but your own. Things have changed in the world, however, and hopefully may change further. It seems to me that we have potential enemies out there much more dangerous and unfriendly to us than the Russians: namely, Islam and China. We should not turn our backs on the Russians or anyone else, but we should try to work with them because, despite the horrible history of Communism, Russia can be and hopefully will be one of our allies in the future. They have a long pre-revolutionary history of staving off the Mongol and Muslim threats. They are all the more important as Europe sinks further and further into decadence and no longer can be relied on--if they ever could.

10 posted on 11/25/2001 9:19:22 AM PST by Cicero
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To: McGavin999
Russian has some of the finest scientific minds on the planet. If these minds can be turned to something constructive there is no end to where it can lead. Space travel, missile defense, modern medicine, technology. It is just plain stupid to think that the economic situation has suddenly dulled the fine minds that are Russian.

It's one of the reasons I'm so glad that our president has developed a relationship with Putin. All that mental ability should be turned to something constructive.

Agreed.

11 posted on 11/25/2001 9:21:25 AM PST by SlickWillard
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To: The Duke
I'm more concerned about Chinese than the Russians. The Chinese seem to be buying everything the Russians is willing to sell. The Chinese feel they have unjustly been denied their right as a world power. Even the word for China "Zhong Gua" translates to "Middle Country".

The Russians are no longer trying to expand their boarders by military conquest. China has claimed ownership of the South China Sea, Sparley Islands, and Taiwan. China continously acts like a jerk whenever someone "hurts their feelings".

The biggest concern about China is that they view the United States as their biggest enemy at the same time that China is becoming an economic power.

12 posted on 11/25/2001 9:23:19 AM PST by Tai_Chung
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To: The Duke
The Kursk wasn't an immediate immaculate conception. It, and its predecessors, go back to Stalin.
How can they do it? Starve the people! Spend all the money on subs, missiles and planes.
Remember NATO expanding to defend Europe against the Russian dominated Warsaw pact threat of thousands of tanks?
After Eastern Germany fell, we found out the tanks couldn't run.
13 posted on 11/25/2001 9:24:58 AM PST by KirklandJunction
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To: The Duke
I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

If you are a country like Somalia, Saudia Arabia, Brazil, Germany or even Great Britain Russia is indeed a superpower simply because of the military hardware they have at their disposal. What the Russkies could do to any of those nations in a day, week or month is more than any of them are properly prepared to deal with. In this same perspective, Israel is a Middle East "Super Power", but whether they would be able to make war against us is another thing.

I suppose when we, in the west, talk about "Super Power" we mean the ability to sustain military dominance over an extended period of time. This implies that a nation's economy will not collapse because of said dominance.

14 posted on 11/25/2001 9:26:20 AM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Trust but Verify
You called?

Yes, I called . . . Please keep an eye on those pesky Ruskies, Oak Hay ???

15 posted on 11/25/2001 9:32:12 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: Tai_Chung
China is a greater threat because they have the economic power that the Russians don't. Their often contentious posture toward the US causes additional concern. I'm surprised there hasn't been new sabre rattling towards Taiwan during the Afghan operation.
16 posted on 11/25/2001 9:38:06 AM PST by paul51
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To: The Duke
The Russians are "broke". Yet they had sufficient funds to:

(1) Develop and deploy a completely new generation of ICBM
(2) Continue--without letup--their massive Chemical, Biological and Nuclear weapons program
(3) Continue to construct a gigantic subterranean city--the size of Washington, D.C., under the Ural mountains.

And we are sending taxpayer funds to them on any number of pretenses. The money NASA sends does a quick U-turn and winds up in Swiss bank accounts...

--Boris

17 posted on 11/25/2001 9:41:26 AM PST by boris
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To: paul51
There has been increased sabre rattling toward Taiwan since Sept. 11th, but it is not related to the war in Afghanistan. Taiwan has elections in Dec. and China is threatening the island voters not to make the wrong choice.
18 posted on 11/25/2001 9:46:11 AM PST by Tai_Chung
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To: The Duke
Many of their toys are falling apart from lack of maintenance.

But how do we really know that? I mean, am I supposed to believe Dan Rather on this!? Also, why would a nation in such a state produce a nice, new, nationkiller sub?

We REALLY know that. It's pretty blatantly obvious what a sorry state the Russian Navy is in. It's exceedingly easy to track ships entering and leaving port, and the Russians hardly ever sail.

No matter how bad you think the Russian military is, it's worse than you think. Just a complete disaster in terms of maintenance and training. Huge problems fighting in Chechnya which is a fairly tiny place that's IN Russia.

There's still leftover inertia from when Russia WAS a superpower....try checking on when the Kursk was laid down. You'll note the Kursk is no longer a nice, new sub, btw. Takes a while for that much military production to grind to a halt. They're still working on new military technologies, some new weapons, to make export money. But in terms of what REALLY matters (maintenance and training, boring things like that ) not stuff that doesn't really matter but seems to be important to people that don't really understand things military(breathless, overhyped website reporting on stuff like the Shkval, etc.) the Russian military is a disaster.

19 posted on 11/25/2001 9:47:24 AM PST by John H K
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To: The Duke
How can a "non-superpower" have a sub like the Kursk?

How can a third-worlder like Iran have any sub?  By screwing their people, of course.

America's Fifth Column ... watch PBS documentary JIHAD! In America
Download 8 Mb zip file here (50 minute video)

20 posted on 11/25/2001 9:49:36 AM PST by JCG
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