Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531

Catholic History | 12 12 2001 | Cap'n Crunch

[It's me]

I read this once (can't remember where) and have always thought of it when I see a full moon:

Mary can be compared to the moon.
The moon is beautiful and it is radiant. The world is illuminated by it's light.
Mary is beautiful and radiant and the world is illuminated by her beauty and light.
The Virgin Mary, like the moon, radiates not her own light but, she reflects light from the Son (moon/sun).

Our Lady does not stand alone but always with her Son.

[eastsider]

Interesting post, but irrelevant to the authenticity of the image in question.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Thank you for the links and the information. There certainly is a vigorous spiritual battle going on.

[Delbert]

So what youre saying is that Windex is a multi purpose household cleaner...Cleans windows and removes apparitions? Very cool.... : )

[hunyb]

Gee, I thought that 'praying to' was worship!

NO ONE cometh unto the Father but by ME! (spoken by JESUS!) praying to anyone else is Idolatry.....plain and simple!

[Delbert]

you and capn crunch are being good sports. This is a fun discussion. There are so many paths...that lead to many doors..but which door leads to eternal salvation and life with christ? perhaps we will all find out one at a time as we each die...

[AnalogReigns]

I'm well aware of Luther's alleged mariology. The key thing is he never claimed authority (and can therefore be wrong about things...), rather only pointed to our only full authority the scriptures--which never show the kind of Mary your Mexican story suggests... a temple for her? wow... One now, and then, has to choose the Bible, or the Roman church...

[fishtank]

By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

Amen. The way that Mary is elevated is an insult to Jesus - the same Jesus who never called her 'mother'.

[eastsider]

Gee, I thought that 'praying to' was worship!

Te verb to pray enjoys a variety of meanings, two of which are immediately relevant: (1) to utter or address a reverent petition to God; and (2) to utter a fervent request to someone. I urge you to read the dictionary and to remember that expressions like praying to Mary and praying to the saints have been around a very long time. We don't use such expressions colloquially today, although lawyers still pray when they petition the court.

[Cap'n Crunch]

The Church investigates apparitions. There have been apparitions of Christ, His Mother and numerous saints. Thee are still saints who's bodies are incorrupt.

The Church then makes a pronouncement. If the apparition is of a supernatural origin it is told to the people that it is 'worthy of belief.' One is free to believe or not. We are not mandated to believe in any apparitions. However the overwhelming (in my mind) evidence for many of these apparitions convinces me.

Think of this also. What is a better way for the devil to have people think all this is kooky? Have people believe they are seeing something when in fact they are not. The devil as you are aware, is a "false coiner", a counterfiter. After and during every appartion that I've read about, satan tries to lure the people away with falsehood and his own trickery. Kind of like Slick Willie, smoke and mirrors to dispense with the truth.

[TonyInOhio]

Last one for me, newgeezer. Obviously, we aren't going to mend the schism in the Church in this thread, and I gotta get back to work.

You wrote:

The point remains: If you dare call anyone's religious belief -- an apparition, triskaidekaphobia, idol worship, voodoo, whathaveyou -- a "superstition," TonyInOhio brands you a "bigot."

For what purpose would someone even use the term "superstition", newgeezer, if not to slur or demean the faith of the original poster?

The point is this, rather - I'll not call your beliefs superstition, and you do the same regarding mine. Then, we can go back to fighting liberals instead of one another.

[Gophack]

Thank you for the lovely article about Mary, Our Mother.

I have read many of the posts, and was disappointed that so many were felt the need to ridicule, denounce, and hurt fellow Christians with sometimes mean and spiteful words. I understand that most Protestant Christians do not understand the role of Mary and the saints in the Catholic Church and that they have been misguided into believing that we worship Mary, pray TO saints, etc.,etc.

I hope that everyone will pray for civilty and peace on Free Republic and realize that we are all children of God, that all Christians believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and that we are united in more than we are divided.

Protestant Reformers, that many of non-Catholic Christians look to for justification, also believed in the Divine Motherhood of Mary:

German reformer Martin Luther's (1483-1546) writings often address the subject of Mary: On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, he wrote In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)

Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary: It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

I hope and pray that there will be more kind words and less hostility when Christians -- Catholic and Protestant -- discuss Our Lord and our faith.

God bless.

[eastsider]

you and capn crunch are being good sports. This is a fun discussion.

This discussion has been going on for years on this forum. Glad you're enjoying it, and welcome to FR.

[grammarman]

By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

Amen. The way that Mary is elevated is an insult to Jesus - the same Jesus who never called her 'mother'.

She was saved before she was born. She was knit before she was in her mother's womb.

[Cap'n Crunch]

No wonder Jesus referred to us as stubborn and stiff necked.

This is one thing I figured would happen, many doing the "ostrich" or the "parrot", sticking their heads in the sand or parroting the same tired old arguments.

Without checking the image for themselves.

Read about it for yourselves, then make up your minds. Investigate for yourself.

[Delbert]

>>It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin.
She was a virgin when Christ was born....this is true....but afterwards....I'm pretty sure Joseph would disagree on this point. Joseph and Mary had some kiddos after Jesus and that requires some non-virginal relations.

[Delbert]

what image are you referring to? i may have missed something on this thread...

[eastsider]

Have I got a thread for you. Scroll to the bottom and click "last" to hop on the train.

[Delbert]

11,178 posts? I better pack a lunch...thats a lot of thread...