(Inspired by the "Honorary" Iraqi FReepers,) It's Time to End Thoughtless Attacks on Muslim on FR

myself | Pyro7480

[swarthyguy]

Sounds like exfreeper "IBI..." -- like a shooting star, he flamed and burned..... had some great and good points...

[Bobby777]

I pray that if war comes to Iraq, the Iraqi people will flee the attack and leave Saddam and Sons and their butcher squads to face their fate ... since they don't ever seem to turn from it ...

[VaBthang4]

I like the letter as well.

I just e-mailed him.

[Pyro7480]

Dont jump to conclusions here. I am FAR from being poliitically-correct. I have read not just the Koran, but also peruse sites like MEMRI to see what the Arabic press is saying. I have also studied the founders of Islamism, like Sayyid Qutb, which I mentioned earlier above. I have also said that a reform movement is LONG overdue in Islam. Why don't you read the first five chapters of the Bible (what Jews call the Torah)? According to that, we're supposed to be violent towards fotune-tellers, pagans, and witches (Levticus and Deuteronomy). Are Jews and Christians doing that? Of course not, because we're civilized. Don't assume things about me or make claims about my beliefs just because I make unpopular statements.

[quidnunc]

I believe Ibrahim Abdul Mu’Min might be a Sufi Muslim, which has been characterized as a tolerant, live-and-let-live sect of Islam.

However, I admit that I don't really know a great deal about Sufis so I may be off base.

[VaBthang4]

I agree.

Subornation of law seperate from the quran and outright racism drive their religion. I dont hear one muslim reconciling that reality.

[Stultis]

North America is based on a peculiar brand of non-Popish Christianity with its cradle in Great Britain, India is based in Hinduism, and the Middle East, Central Asia, and parts of Africa and Southern Asia are based in Islam, etc. Religion is the base of ideas, and ideas are the base of the history of a nation. These things are not random. Islam, in all its forms, is not friendly to the ideals articulated by James Madison. It is based on a completely different worldview.

Yes, and well spoken, BUT

The West has discovered principles that we contend and reasonably believe are universal values. What is more, and is more to the point than our culturally influenced and colored beliefs on the matter, is that we have proven these principles in practice.

The West has in objective fact discovered the best means -- in representative democracy, in government limited wrt inalienable human rights, in a balance of powers among the elements of government, in the rule of law, etc -- of human self-governance.

The West has in objective fact discovered -- in free markets, in the right of property ownership with clear and recognized title, in regulation that (increasingly in the ideal, alas) is free from favoritism, etc -- the best way for humans to provide for their sustenance.

The West has in objective fact discovered -- in the idea of individual liberty -- the best means of channeling the surfeit of economic and cultural resources produced by our system into the multiplicative engines of humanistic passion and human creativity.

No matter how loudly fascistic, islamist Imams shout, no matter how enthusiastically islamist terrorists and thugs murder, the achievements of the West stand, unique in all of human history, as facts ultimately undeniable.

I understand the difficulties, and even the dangers, in other cultures fruitfully engaging these facts and the principles through which they have been actualized. You make a very valid point in this regard. But there are people in these cultures who are reaching out to make the best of our univerisal values their own. What do we do? Do we reach out to their open hands, do we welcome their honorable intentions (certainly in measure as justified) or do we discourage them because we view the maintenance of our cultural accoutrements as more important than the expansion and exportation of our core principals?

[Bobby777]

Take a month or two and read the Koran closely,

Allow me to offer him a primer ... direct from the online koran ... except I will not put "God" where the intention is "Allah"

The Koran on Jews, Christians, Christianity, Christ, the Gospel, The Deity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the Bible (the Book) and Infidels

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

"The Women" [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[3.85] "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

The Dinner Table - [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

The Cattle - [6.146] And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.

The Immunity - Denial of Deity of Christ and His Messiahship - [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! (MAY ALLAH DESTROY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS)

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Congregation [62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful. (PLEASE COMMIT SUICIDE)

The Cow - [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

The Women - [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. (CLEARLY STATES THAT JESUS IS **NOT** THE SON OF GOD)

The Dinner Table - The Dinner Table [5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

"Fight those who do not profess the true faith [ISLAM], till they pay the jiziya with the hand of humility." - Koran 9: 29

".... I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS], and smite all their finger tips of them [CUT OFF THEIR FINGERS]." - Koran 8: 12

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." - Koran 9: 73

"When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads [CUT OFF THEIR HEADS] and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly." - Koran 47: 4

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom...." - Koran 5: 33-34

" Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." - Koran 9: 29

"....the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth." - Koran 9: 30

"....the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." - Koran 98: 1-8

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" - Koran 22: 19-22, 23

"And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high and would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds. " - Koran 31-37

"They say: Allah has taken a Son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: He is the Self-sufficient: His is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know? Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful." - Koran 10:68-69 [SAYS JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD AND WHOEVER SAYS SO IS A LIAR]

[jedwardtremlett]

Good points, and well said.

Unfortunately, I think such voices of reason are going to be drowned out by their opposite numbers on this board.

Fortunately, there's not a whole heck of a lot said opposite numbers can actually do.

J

[Rome2000]

I know the regime of Iraq purports to be secular but the residents all bow down to Mecca a couple of times a day, or else.

The mindset needs to change, the populace of these countries must be freed to do what we in the west take for granted

Any religion that denies its followers the opportunity to have a drink to relax and maybe look at a woman who isn't covered head to toe is bound to breed a bunch of uptight homicidal maniacs.

These bastards are so desperate they happily commit suicide over the promise that virgins await them in heaven .

[VaBthang4]

You're so intolerant and unaccepting. The Bible says kill a cow that falls in a ditch...do we do that?

Everything is relative and morally equivalent. Open your mind.

</ sarcasm>

[Stultis]

CSPAN felt they had to air the Anti-American Socialists rally TWICE before showing our rally the first time!

Uh, check your TV now. THREE TIMES (once after showing the Patriots rally). Damn shameful behavior by C-SPAN. Our rally aired while the inquisitive young people and young adults who might check it out at gatherings, in the night clubs, or watching SNL.

[McGavin999]

Look, I am well aware that there is a very large contingent of the Hate America Muslims in this country. What we're trying to say is that not all Muslims hate America.

There is a large group of Muslims all over the world that hate us, but we have to stop thinking that all of them do.

We've had some good Muslims try to post here and they have been shouted down.

We just sent our kids to a Muslim country to free the people of that country. Ninety percent of those people have a completely different opinion of Americans after we came. Ten percent of those people still hate us and want us dead and are doing everything in their power to do just that......but not all of them. There were Muslims standing at the side of our men, who went into battle with them, who befriended them. There are Iranians who today are praying that the US will help them obtain their freedom. There are Iraqui people who look to the sky every day hoping this is the day we will help free them from Saddam.

I know that it is not a popular stance around here, but I'm not willing to throw all of any particular people into one pot and judge them all alike.

I agree that we have good reason to mistrust anyone who is Muslim, by their silence they have brought this on. BUT, I am an American to the bone, and it has been bred into me to tolerate other religions and to not judge all people by the acts of some or even most. If I give that up, I give up my very essense.

[Pyro7480]

I'm not saying stop voicing your opinions. Please don't jump to conclusions. Your opinion is as valid as mine. That's the beauty of liberty, particularly here in the good old U.S.A. My BIGGEST point is for people to stop making unfounded statements of ANY kind and to stop name-calling. I've made this point on threads about what conservatism is and on other threads. Think what you want, but I am NOT being politically-correct by asking for this. My statements may put me on people's s**t lists, but I really don't care. Tenacity is a virtue, especially when one is voicing a reasoned but unpopular viewpoint.

There is an old statement (I think by Nazi propagandist Goebbels) who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, it "becomes" the truth. On the other hand, in my opinion, if you tell the truth often enough, you need nothing more and you win arguments. The truth is:
ISLAMISM (and all it's subsects of Wahhabbiism, radical Shi'ism, Islamic fascism, fundamentalism, etc.) and the RADICAL LEFT is the ENEMY.

That is who we need to focus our energy on.

[seeker41]

Subornation of law seperate from the quran and outright racism drive their religion. I dont hear one muslim reconciling that reality.

And you never will, the "koran" is the end all and be all of the islamists. I've read it and find it to be quite vile and insulting, full of errors and badly written. With titles like "The Cow" what does one expect.lol

[per loin]

Are Jews and Christians doing that? Of course not, because we're civilized.

No use in my destroying your argument, when you do it so effectively yourself.

[Pyro7480]

See my post #74.

[Pyro7480]

Oh? What is your point?

[Bobby777]

yes, got your point ... LOL

were it not for the New Testament superseding the Old Testament, there are certainly OT Scriptures that do have some radical things ... but for we Christians, it all must be interpreted in Light of the New Testament, which allows Christians to defend themselves, but we do not kill those who refuse, reject or do not know of the Faith ...

some have used the Name of Christ to do so down through the centuries ... in gross error ... and we refute those who have done so ... for it is not the teachings of Christ ... or any of the Apostles in the New Testament ...

[I got the rope]

So what you are telling us is that you have not read the Koran. I could make an arguement that the Constitution does not recognize Islam as a religion nor does it protect it since it calls for the death of Christians and Jews (non-believers.

I've had friends that were Pakastani, Kuwaiti, Algerian, Moroccan, Iranian, and one Iraqi. I confronted them about what the Koran said...and do you know what...not one of the argued with me. They knew the line that they could not cross with me in the room. They are all back in their own country now...except the Iranian and Iraqi who have since been naturalized and by the way are Christian. Islam is destructive and must be stopped.