CAVUTO REPORTS THAT BUSH CONSIDERING SCRAPPING THE IRS CODE!!!

Fox News Channel | November 6, 2002 | n/a

[Tree of Liberty]

Neil Cavuto just interviewed Mitchell E. Daniels, Jr., the director of the OMB, and Neil let it be known that he's hearing rumblings that Pres. Bush is considering a total re-write of the tax code and that SecTreas O'Neill is strongly pushing a national retail sales tax!

[palmer]

Well I hate to break it to you, but your state seems to collect sales tax at flea markets

It would have to be estimated from gross receipts. Prices are negotiated so receipts will be the word of the retailer. He can sell three and report two at half price unless every item is tracked and fair market value is applied. In other words I have never seen any evidence that taxes were collected or that they even could be collected accurately.

[#3Fan]

Scrap the IRS but have a single low low rate like in Russia. and a postcard size form to complete. NOT a "sales tax" try 17% or more on EVERY transaction from raw materials to consumer....why you think Europe is stagnating (VAT on everything)

I agree. A low flat income tax is the way to go. But a NRST is better than what we have now.

[Principled]

NO TAX on the 1st $35,000 of income and a flat % for every dollar there after with NO deductions.

How do you define income? Would we still need an IRS? Would we still have paycheck withholding? Would we still have payroll taxes? Would we still need to keep records?, get W-2s?, need accountants? What about home mortgage interest deduction? Would it stay flat?...history says no. Would the level of exempted income change? Who would decide how much?

No income tax for me - neither flat nor round. Take a look at some of the stuff here. Methinks you'll come around.

[Taxman]

Actually, the black market would decrease in size.

Here is the (short version) logic: Currently, the progressive income tax progressively punishes those who earn -- the more money a person earns, the more is stolen, percentage wise from their check.

This differential treatment causes many people to seek some relief, and the black market or "underground economy" is one method of relief many people choose. [In fact, the underground economy is the fastest growing segment of our economy, and has been for several years now. But the government will not admit it.]

In contrast, under the NRST, everybody pays the same rate of taxes -- and everybody is, therefore, treated with equality (in respect of taxes). There is no progressive disincentive to work, earn, save and invest.

I believe that most Americans are honest people, and that those participating in the underground economy (except drug dealers and the like) would prefer not to. Economic necessity (they like to be able to feed, house and clothe their families, etc.) has forced them into their lawlessness.

Once those who skirt the law come to understand that they are (taxwise) treated with equality, and that they can feed, house and clothe their families, etc., without engaging in the underground economy, they will cease doing so, because living on the "opther side of the law" is not comfortable for most Americans.

And, for all practical purposes, what is now called the "underground economy" will wither up and die.

Of course, for you to accept my argument, you have to agree with me that most Americans are honest people and would rather obey than disobey the law. I have no hard evidence to support my position -- just my dealings with people over the past 60 odd years.

[palmer]

Gross receipts from retailers that sell mixed used and new merchandise at negotiated prices? How accurate is that going to be?

[ancient_geezer]

I don't know what 'Fair Tax' is, but used items in TExas are certainly taxed.

 The "Fair Tax" NRST doesn't tax used items, and provides that states that conform their sales tax structure to be consistent with that of the Fair Tax can administer the NRST and be paid to do so.

H.R.2525
SPONSOR: Rep Linder, John (introduced 07/17/2001)
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Refer: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org

Texas has already indicated that it would be willing to conform its sales tax law to that of the Fair Tax NRST should it be enacted to uniformly administer both.

Committee on Ways and Means, Full Committee, 4-11-00 Testimony Carole Keeton Rylander, the Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts, was delighted to receive an invitation to testify before this committee regarding the Fundamental Tax Reform measures under consideration today. Last year, the Texas Comptroller collected
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/fullcomm/106cong/4-11-00/4-11hami.htm

The Fair Tax NRST was designed through the efforts of a group of businessmen from the Houston area.

[tenger]

You know what I think? Good, 'cause I'm gonna tell ya! If we on this board are having a hard time grappling with the concept of NSRT or flat tax, do you realize the massive re-education campaign this will have to take to get 260 million to understand and accept this?

I have to agree with Ron Paul's quote about cutting a tax requires them to cut their spending too. That ain't gonna happen soon.

Oh, and another thing, if you decide that on January 1, 2003 to do away with IRS and implement either plan, expect major chaos and confusion in America. I like the ideas but implementing them are very very tricky.

"Of course there are allegations, but where are the alligators?" --Mayor Richard J. Daley (old man Daley)

[stickywillie]

So, is the current IRS system Constitutional?

[palmer]

difficulties of collecting income taxes from illegal-drug

Sorry to be so stubborn about this, but I don't care about the lost revenue from the illegal drug market whether it is income tax or sales tax. All I am trying to point out is the difficulty of tracking merchandise and sales of that merchandise.

Granted, drug dealers have a much larger incentive to hide their production, smuggling, and sales, but the basic principle applies to any merchanidise. That principle is that merchandise can be produced, smuggled and sold without the government knowing about it, except for the small fraction that they are lucky enough to find.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

How do you define income? Would we still need an IRS? Would we still have paycheck withholding? Would we still have payroll taxes? Would we still need to keep records?, get W-2s?, need accountants? What about home mortgage interest deduction? Would it stay flat?...history says no. Would the level of exempted income change? Who would decide how much?

Don't forget the Clinton-Era abuse which soured me on the Flat Tax (me, a Forbes Man!!) for all time...

Would the IRS still have the power to subject Pro-Life and other conservatve lobbying groups to audits costing THOUSANDS of man-hours? Yes, they would.

Cato Institute studies indicate that there is almost NO "economic" difference between a Flat Tax and the NRST. They're both.... highly beneficial, in a lot of different ways!!

But the real difference becomes quickly apparent... when the IRS auditor comes to your door.

[yoswif]

The Socialist Workers Party was, is, and will always be the biggest proponents of the income tax.

[Taxman]

Great thread. Glad you posted it.

Seems like there is a huge pent up demand (yearning?) among many FReepers for fundamental tax reform.

Good!

If you yearn to learn more about fundamental tax reform, click here and here.

And join with us to get this job done REAL SOON NOW so your humble servant, Taxman, can devote his retirement years to retirement kinds of activities! LOL!

[William Terrell]

That's true about the income tax. But with a national sale tax, the government will have a nose into what you can afford to buy and how much of it, including necessities like food, propane, fuel, firewood, shelter, firearms and not to mention automobiles, chainsaws and lawn mowers. That's a damn site more personal and manipulative that sucking off the top.

Social control is a hell of a lot easier when the grip is on the consumption side. Have you ever heard of a Hydrolic Empire? There's some references to it on the web. It'll hold your attention.

Which ever way you go, the same large amounts of your resources are going to be sucked out of your pocket. The only difference is where they're leeched off going in or coming out.

If they're leeched off going in, Uncle is there when you get paid, then he leaves; going out, he's standing next to the thing you want to buy, the he reappears at the next thing. You will see him several times a day. Not for me, maybe for you.

That's the way I see it. I'm all for eliminating the income tax, I just don't want to replace it. The only reason this government needs all that money is to maintain the socialist systems in place and programs to get its administraters reelected so they can put in place more socialist systems, to get reelected. . .and if it comes from income and FICA , or a sales tax, it still comes.

The only difference is who has to fill out the paperwork. Everybody once a year, or retail business people once a month. Unless the tax is a burden. Then you can fill out paperwork to get part of it back (and that takes a federal organization that's hauntingly similar to one, earlier disbanded, whose acronym started with an "I" and ended with an "S").

[CyberAnt]

I really doubt Cavuto said it out of the blue - usually these guys have been keeping track of a specific issue, or else he heard rumors and decided to play his hand.

[concerned about politics]

You know what I think? Good, 'cause I'm gonna tell ya! If we on this board are having a hard time grappling with the concept of NSRT or flat tax, do you realize the massive re-education campaign this will have to take to get 260 million to understand and accept this?

Yeh! Try Boward county, Florida!

[William Terrell]

How do you collapse a corrupt government by continuing its vast money supply? And if money is part of that corruption, how will this make it honest?

[William Terrell]

The Socialist Workers Party will aways be the biggest proponents of a 30% retail sales tax, too. It's the money that goes into the government, not by what method its taken from its owners.

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

If you get the chance to watch Mondale's concession speach when it re-runs on CSPAN check out the guy over his left shoulder. It's like they wrote the answer to the questions and then had people in the crowd ask the questions and his son is literally mouthing the answers at the same time Mondale is giving them with the head movements and all.

It's really weird.

It is also possible that his son is projecting himself into the event imagining he is the one giving the speach but I doubt it is that. My money is on the former reason.

[Texaggie79]

JR going blue? Say it ain't so :-P

[palmer]

Actually, the black market would decrease in size.

I hope you are right, but I don't see evidence for it myself.