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U.S., Mexican legislators discuss border vigilantes - States may stop groups targeting illegals
Associated Press ^ | November 24, 2002 | Associated Press Staff

Posted on 11/24/2002 2:06:29 AM PST by MeekOneGOP


U.S., Mexican legislators discuss border vigilantes

States may take action against groups that target migrants

11/24/2002

Associated Press

NUEVO LAREDO, Mexico - U.S. and Mexican lawmakers expressed concern Saturday about a growing number of American vigilante groups that capture and sometimes hurt or kill Mexican migrants who cross into the United States illegally.

The fringe groups have sprung up in several border towns in Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, where residents frustrated by U.S. border agents' inability to stop illegal migration have taken matters into their own hands, said Arizona state Rep. Robert Cannell.

Mr. Cannell said Arizona legislators will likely take up the issue of vigilante groups during the state's next legislative session. The Democrat said he was "strongly opposed" to the groups.

Mr. Cannell was one of eight U.S. state legislators - three from New Mexico, two from California, two from Arizona, and one from Texas - who joined 38 lawmakers from the six Mexican border states at the third annual legislative border forum in Nuevo Laredo.

In separate Binational Commission meetings on Monday and Tuesday in Mexico City, high-ranking U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Colin Powell, will hold talks with their Mexican counterparts on what to do about the estimated 3 million Mexicans working illegally in the United States.

New Mexico state Sen. Mary Jane Garcia said vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men who feel that state and federal governments haven't done enough to protect towns along the border. The Democrat said the issue also needed urgent attention in the New Mexico legislature.

Also on Saturday, Chihuahua state lawmaker Cesar Castro Lopez called on investigators from the FBI and Britain's Scotland Yard to help solve the brutal slayings of women in Ciudad Juarez.

More than 75 women have been raped and killed since 1993 in Ciudad Juarez, the border's largest city. Dozens of suspects have been arrested, but bodies have continued to turn up in the desert.

Mr. Castro Lopez said that Mexican state and federal commissions assigned to investigate the crimes have failed to produce any concrete leads.

"It has become a financial issue of vital importance for those who do business on the border," he said, adding that violence in Juarez has begun to affect U.S. commercial interests, thus ensuring that the killings fall under U.S. jurisdiction.

The killings have "ruined the reputation of Ciudad Juarez in the eyes of the world," Mr. Castro Lopez said.


Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/tsw/stories/112402dntexvigilantes.b2a17.html


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Mexico; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Arizona; US: California; US: New Mexico; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccrm; illegalimmigrants; vigilantegroups
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Mr. Cannell said Arizona legislators will likely take up the issue of vigilante groups during the state's next legislative session. The Democrat said he was "strongly opposed" to the groups.

So, then....the govt won't take effective action to stop illegals, but they want to stop those that want to stop it? Democrats trolling for Democrat votes again?.....

Don't get me wrong, folks. I've never advocated vigilant groups, most especially violence. It just seems two-faced of our government to not take proper action on illegal immigration but to threaten legal citizens for trying to stop it.

1 posted on 11/24/2002 2:06:29 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: Squantos; GeronL; Billie; Slyfox; San Jacinto; SpookBrat; FITZ; COB1; DainBramage; Dallas; ...
States may take action against groups that target migrants illegal immigrants

There now - that's better. Nothing like the media mileading the public, is there?



Please let me know if you want ON or OFF my Texas or General interest ping list!

2 posted on 11/24/2002 2:10:45 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: MeeknMing
U.S. and Mexican lawmakers expressed concern Saturday about a growing number of American vigilante groups that capture and sometimes hurt or kill Mexican migrants who cross into the United States illegally.

Name just ONE border intruder (NOT "Mexican migrant") hurt or killed by one of these so-called "American vigilante groups"!

AP is a bunch of lying bastards! I intend to freep them over this one.

3 posted on 11/24/2002 2:19:25 AM PST by Spiff
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To: MeeknMing
Hooray for the American patriots with the guts to protect this country. The politicians who support the takeover of this country by swarming third-world immigration should be treated like the traitors that they are.
4 posted on 11/24/2002 2:23:12 AM PST by uscit
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To: MeeknMing
This article certainly provides us with a Barbara Streisand moment or six.

The article states that there is, "a growing number of American vigilante groups that capture and sometimes hurt or kill Mexican migrants who cross into the United States illegally."  If that is true, the hurt and kill part, it's rather interesting that US Citizens have not been arrested or charged with such activity.  Is the Mexican government suggesting our government dosen't take assault and murder seriously north of the border?

Once again quoting from the article, "'The fringe groups have sprung up...', said Arizona state Rep. Robert Cannell."  I don't consider farmers who wish to protect their land, posessions and family from illegal immigrant interlopers, to be a "fringe group."  These folks are as mainstream as it gets.  US Citizens want the border brought under control by 70%.  So who is the fringe individual here?  That's right Cannell, you are.  "The Democrat said he was 'strongly opposed' to the groups."  Well he's the one who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  Either he should do it or resign.

"New Mexico state Senator Mary Jane Garcia said, 'vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men who feel that state and federal governments haven't done
enough to protect towns along the border.' The Democrat said the issue also needed urgent attention in the New Mexico legislature."  Well the folks I've seen on the television are college educated people, former law enforcement officers and former members of the military.  I guess that's three pretty problematic groups according ot this ill-informed state senator.

Perhaps the single most outlandish portion of this report, is the attempt to drag criminality south of the border into the debate over the patrols.  Without missing a beat the article continues, "Also on Saturday, Chihuahua state lawmaker Cesar Castro Lopez called on investigators from the FBI and Britain's Scotland Yard to help solve the brutal slayings of women in Ciudad Juarez."

Unless you're paying attention here, it almost sounds as if the writer is talking about activity instigated by the "vigilantes" (refered to by folks without an ax to grind as patrols).  Read on, "More than 75 women have been raped and killed since 1993 in Ciudad Juarez, the border's largest city. Dozens of suspects have been arrested, but bodies have continued to turn up in the desert."  Here we are talking about the subject of the patrols, which these elected officials can't come grips with, then the article launches into stories of rapes and killings without making much of the fact that the patrols aren't involved at all.  They don't operate south of the borders.  They have nothing to do with these crimes, and nobody said they did.  But lumped in with this article, the intimation is clear.

Read this:

"Mr. Castro Lopez said that Mexican state and federal commissions assigned to investigate the crimes have failed to produce any concrete leads. 'It has become a financial issue of vital importance for those who do business on the border,' he said, adding that violence in Juarez has begun to affect U.S. commercial interests, thus ensuring that the killings fall under U.S. jurisdiction. The killings have 'ruined the reputation of Ciudad Juarez in the eyes of the world,' Mr. Castro Lopez said."

Excuse me, but it is not the job of the United States to solve crimes taking place in Mexico.  None the less Chihuahua state lawmaker Cesar Castro Lopes calls on the United States and Scotland Yard to solve the crimes.  Why?  "Becuase it affects US commercial interests.  Thus it ensures that the killings fall under US Jurisdiction."  Now there's a Democrat in the making!

I don't know who's elected officials are the bigger fools.  Is it the Mexican lawmaker that screws over the US Citizen then bitches when those citizens take reasoned measures to stop it?  Is it the US lawmaker who watches on and blames the US Citizen without so much as an inadvertent burp in the presence of Mexican Officials?  Or is it this Lopes who calls in US Law Enforcement and Interpole rather than slam his own leader Fox for not taking more action on the issue?

This border mess just gets wierder and wierder.

5 posted on 11/24/2002 2:58:44 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne
Second Mexican War coming, d'ya think?

Either they should stay on their side of the border, get a visa, or apply for statehood.
6 posted on 11/24/2002 3:12:21 AM PST by calenel
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To: MeeknMing
Now that is alot of bull, I haven't heard of any illegal getting killed by one of these groups without good cause.
7 posted on 11/24/2002 3:35:43 AM PST by dila813
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To: MeeknMing
U.S. and Mexican lawmakers expressed concern Saturday about a growing number of American vigilante groups that capture and sometimes hurt or kill Mexican migrants who cross into the United States illegally.

What a bunch of crap. Yesterday I watched live feed on Barnett's Ranch on the Douglas/Mexico border. It started as just a test of their motion sensors and satellites and cameras. Then they got a signal of movement and traveled to the site. I then saw 3 illegals, 2 walking and one on a bicycle. Another camera showed a member of the citizen patrol on a cell phone.

Then we saw 2 US Border Patrol vehicles meet up with him and proceed to follow him to the location of the illegals. Between the time these guys were spotted and when the Border Patrol caught up with them, no one from the citizen group ever approached them. They were strolling along, unaware of the cameras and the motion detectors. The work of the citizen patrol was all done out of sight of these lawbreakers. It was all done with a well thought out plan and $30,000 worth of hi tech equipment.

With photo evidence of all encounters, it will be hard for our "Lawmakers" to keep up these claims of injury and murder being committed by these fine people.

8 posted on 11/24/2002 3:53:03 AM PST by madfly
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To: Sabertooth; JohnHuang2; MissAmericanPie; georgiabelle; I_Love_My_Husband; Clinton Is Scum; ...
ping
9 posted on 11/24/2002 3:56:18 AM PST by madfly
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To: Tancredo Fan; Marine Inspector; Ajnin; Fish out of Water; agitator; Tancred; Spiff; backhoe; ...
ping
10 posted on 11/24/2002 3:57:08 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
It looks as though the gubment talking heads are setting up to be a problem for some ranchers.
11 posted on 11/24/2002 4:00:29 AM PST by exnavy
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To: Spiff; All
You're absolutely right - I don't know of a single Mexican illegal who has died at the hands of the "undereducated young men" who compose these "vigilante" groups. This article is typical bolshevik propaganda; fortunately more and more people are seeing through the lies propagated by organizations such as AP (and CNN, CBS, ABC, Reuters, etc.).
Not one word in this article about how the illegals are treated by those who smuggle them in - robbings, rapings, beatings, abandonment in the desert, locked in boxcars, etc.
12 posted on 11/24/2002 4:04:30 AM PST by waxhaw
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To: DoughtyOne
Perhaps the single most outlandish portion of this report, is the attempt to drag criminality south of the border into the debate over the patrols. Without missing a beat the article continues,

Absolutely. This is one of the most unprofessional, dishonest, and disgusting pieces of "journalism" I have read in a long time.

It should not suprise us that AP wrote it. This week, AP and AP Radio News led with Daschle's screed--followed by AP inserting that "Daschle and his family have been the targets of Anthrax attacks."------suggesting talk radio fans tried to kill him.

13 posted on 11/24/2002 4:20:43 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: MeeknMing
As a Border Patrol Agent, I wholeheartedly support the efforts of Mr. Barnette and other citizens that are giving up their time to patrol the border. The magnitude of the immigration problem definitely requires civilian help.
14 posted on 11/24/2002 4:22:33 AM PST by Ajnin
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To: SkyPilot
Yes, that's it. I had overlooked how this whole Daschle threat thing got twisted. They and the Moris Dees' and the FBI have been making up the hypothesis that the anthrax attacker was a domestic professional rather than a foreigner. That's the source of all this insanity on Daschle's part recently. Funny how the leftist lies come around to shape their myopia.
15 posted on 11/24/2002 4:33:38 AM PST by flamefront
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To: madfly
This will unleash the 'mother' of all court battles.

We all have the basic right to protect our own lives and those of our family, our homes and our property.

How will they legislate these rights away?

16 posted on 11/24/2002 4:35:04 AM PST by 4Freedom
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To: Ajnin
Excellent. And do you also acknowledge the news reports that Border Patrol management shifts the duties of its agents when calls come from Mexico to avoid dangerous areas at times and places where drug runs are to take place? (In effect aiding the drug trade.)
17 posted on 11/24/2002 4:37:17 AM PST by flamefront
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To: madfly
With photo evidence of all encounters, it will be hard for our "Lawmakers" to keep up these claims of injury and murder being committed by these fine people.

Since when have facts stopped a politician from lying?

18 posted on 11/24/2002 4:42:35 AM PST by sarcasm
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To: 4Freedom
The pressure is coming from the top. The news reports are getting attention by the Bush administration. Next week you will hear a lot about amnesty. Some deal is being arranged. President Bush needs to stop all this but so far he is not putting his foot down. Vincente Fox holds out the Iraqi OK just to extort 'migration.'
19 posted on 11/24/2002 4:42:49 AM PST by flamefront
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To: DoughtyOne
You are exactly right about that false insinuation is made by the juxtaposition of the 2 news reports that somehow Americans - so-called vigilantes - are to blame for the cases of rapes and murder in Juarez.

Leftist media lies and distortion once again.

20 posted on 11/24/2002 4:47:41 AM PST by flamefront
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To: DoughtyOne
Well stated here DoughtyOne. You expressed what I was thinking as I was scrolling down to your response here in response to the above piece of 'hit-piece propaganda'. I would only add that as long as we (voters) keep voting for those politicos who support the invasion of our country by the hordes of lawbreakers flooding across our borders from all points then nothing will ever be done to stop or stem the tide of these illegal immigrants.

Voters keep sending the same (kind of) politicians back to office year after year because they are either afraid of being labeled a single-issue voter or are bamboozled and dazzled by all the pre-election glitter that they are either unaware or permissive of this most serious issue or just don't care. Too many elected office holders give only lip service to upholding the laws and Constitution of this great country.

21 posted on 11/24/2002 4:54:26 AM PST by Ron H.
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To: Ajnin
As an Army vet, I salute you for the job that you do for our nation. It must be quite frustrating at times. Don't take any of the negative comments about the Border Patrol in here personally - they are all directed at your bureaucrats in DC and not at the actual agents. We also know that there is another agenda that they are operating on at the top levels - and defending our nation isn't one of them.

22 posted on 11/24/2002 5:00:35 AM PST by 11B3
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To: 11B3
Second.
23 posted on 11/24/2002 5:10:08 AM PST by Gunrunner2
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To: MeeknMing
It would be a ton easier and make a whole lot more sense to do what
Bush and others have suggested long ago.... Open the borders and
allow easy entry and exit. Promote NAFTA. Let the migrants work
legally, pay taxes and help keep American industry here in the United States.

 

 

24 posted on 11/24/2002 5:12:03 AM PST by Deep_6
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To: sarcasm
Since when have facts stopped a politician from lying?

I stand corrected, duh.

25 posted on 11/24/2002 5:23:21 AM PST by madfly
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To: MeeknMing
New Mexico state Sen. Mary Jane Garcia said vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men

Well, Senator, those undereducated young men have sense enough to know what and where the problem is. Too bad you don't seem to know. Now, who's undereducated, Senator? What, if anything, Senator, have you done to stop the problem--the problem of illegals infiltrating across the Mexico border into your state?

Senator, review your Old West history. Many of the communities in the Old West were liberated from outlaws and lawlesness by vigilante groups. Why? Because politicians, like you, Senator, did little or nothing to to rid the communities of the outlaw elements. And yes, Senator, illegals crossing the border are no better than outlaws. They are illegally here--thus lawbreakers; ergo, outlaws. It took vigilantes to settle many of the Old West communities. It appears it will take vigilantes to stop the flood of illegals trampling down the National border. Otherwise, Senator, what are you doing to stop the outlaws?
26 posted on 11/24/2002 5:52:40 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: MeeknMing
Why don't we just give every Mexican a million bucks who agrees to move here? Seriously, it's getting that screwey. Our State Department trawls the World for every kind of Third World refugee. These are not immigrants of old who came here on their own. These refugees are given money to come here and then more money after they settle down. When is this madness going to stop?
27 posted on 11/24/2002 5:53:54 AM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Deep_6
If you change the citizenship laws so that birth here by non-citizens does not convey citizenship you might get some takers to such a plan. Add the ability to deny publically funded services to non-citzens and you would get some more. End welfare and you might even get my vote. Of course, you know the reason why Bush and co. don't deal with illegal immigration is they WANT the cheap labor. Immigration hurts Americans by cutting the price of labor at the margin. Substitution effects will prevent some of those jobs from leaving the country if the price returns to market levels, otherwise they would be better done where costs are less, not here.
28 posted on 11/24/2002 5:59:03 AM PST by RKV
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To: flamefront
President Bush needs to stop all this

Trouble is, President Bush is one of the gung ho cheerleaders for 245(i) Amnesty for Illegals.

245(i) did NOT pass in the last Congress (Fall, 2001) because of one Senator Byrd. (Bless him). He stopped it and the remaining politicians (Democrats and Republicans and the President) decided to "put it on hold" until after the 2002 election. [That's where we are now; and less than a month following the 2002 elections, 245(i) -- or a similar version thereof -- is already on the menu again.]
29 posted on 11/24/2002 6:00:40 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: MeeknMing; All; *bang_list
Could there be a better example to starkly illustrate the notion that Sovereign Citizenship in a Constitutional Representative Republic is not just an abstract concept?

Confronted with literal Rape, Pillage, Looting and Murder elected officials somberly play a game of "Wag the Dog" and (falsely) believe it is their job to control and rule over the people who pay their salaries and give them their jobs.

I've long held we live in an Age of Converging Inanities and this example certainly demonstrates it clearly.

Best regards,

30 posted on 11/24/2002 6:27:41 AM PST by Copernicus
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To: MeeknMing; *CCRM
For educational and entertainment purposes see how many errors of ommission and commission can be counted in this AP Story:

Click Here For a Guideline

Best regards,

31 posted on 11/24/2002 6:36:46 AM PST by Copernicus
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To: MeeknMing
If American politicians and bureaucrats truly want to discourage vigilantism, they should cease and desist their own ongoing and bipartisan malfeasance with regard to Illegal Aliens.



32 posted on 11/24/2002 6:38:52 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: 4Freedom
They will simply legislate our rights away. That is how they will do it. There is simply too much at stake i.e. votes, money, power,prestige, women, boys, the best foods, drinks and drugs. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it.
33 posted on 11/24/2002 6:46:30 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS
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To: Sabertooth
Yeah, but the 'RATS are drooling for more 'RAT votes. This is one way to get them.




I'm a GOOD 'RAT !




34 posted on 11/24/2002 6:48:22 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: MeeknMing
vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men who feel that state and federal governments haven't done enough to protect towns along the border...boy things are getting tough, I'm undereducated with a graduate degree. Maybe there is a federal subsidy that can get me the education I need. Until then where do I send money to the groups patrolling the border on this side?
35 posted on 11/24/2002 6:49:59 AM PST by RWG
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To: DoughtyOne
Read on, "More than 75 women have been raped and killed since 1993 in Ciudad Juarez, the border's largest city. Dozens of suspects have been arrested, but bodies have continued to turn up in the desert."

The other BIG lie in this is that it's well over 300 raped and killed women and girls. More like 375 by now and over 500 are missing, most likely killed. Some American women in those numbers too. NO ONE in Mexico suspects this is our border patrol or white Americans involved. No white guy could be in the neighborhoods where these murders took place. Many Mexicans suspect Mexican drug lords and traffickers and suspect major coverups by the Mexican police and government officials.

36 posted on 11/24/2002 6:56:56 AM PST by FITZ
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To: MeeknMing
"Sen. Mary Jane Garcia said vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men--"

What a biased and ignorant statement.

37 posted on 11/24/2002 6:58:06 AM PST by aeronca
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To: MeeknMing
separate Binational Commission meetings on Monday and Tuesday in Mexico City, high-ranking U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Colin Powell, will hold talks with their Mexican counterparts on what to do about the estimated 3 million Mexicans working illegally in the United States

Follow the Constitution and round them up and send them home.

We can replace them with foreigners that have not broken our immigration laws and who have waited patiently to legally immigrate.

38 posted on 11/24/2002 6:59:56 AM PST by HennepinPrisoner
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To: MeeknMing
Too bad we are not addressing the Mexican vigilantes who rape, pillage and kill the migrants in that inhumane trade of theirs. Man, the world is upside down, the insane are telling us how we should keep our shops.
39 posted on 11/24/2002 7:03:18 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: madfly; Tancredo Fan; Sabertooth
It's getting rather obvius that our so-called leaders WANT the flood of crimanal invaders to continue.
40 posted on 11/24/2002 7:03:45 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: DoughtyOne
Excuse me, but it is not the job of the United States to solve crimes taking place in Mexico.

LAcking a police state here, others want to import it, full with jurisdictional and sovereign conflicts of interests. And we let them do it.

41 posted on 11/24/2002 7:05:04 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: Deep_6
Look how the Mexican government treats people along the border (they wouldn't even let them keep their wooden pallets so they could build new homes):

November 12, 2002
Squatters' Homes Torn Down in Cd. Juárez's Lote Bravo

On November 11, 2002, in the Ciudad Juárez neighborhood of Lote Bravo, more than 50 houses made of wooden pallets and cardboard were torn down by city employees using pipes and crowbars. The city workers engaged in razing the homes were from the Departamento de Regulación de Asentamientos Humanos (Department for the Regulation of Human Settlements) and were backed up by local police agents.

Reactions varied as the destruction of the homes took place. At least one man was arrested by police and other people complained about the loss of their investments.

Edel Alberto Arroyo, one of the Lote Bravo squatters, told the Cd. Juárez newspaper El Diario that residents should have been given the opportunity to save their pallets. El Diario estimated that each dwelling was worth approximately 1,000 pesos (nearly US$100) because wooden pallets sell for 15 pesos (US$1.50) each.

42 posted on 11/24/2002 7:06:22 AM PST by FITZ
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To: Travis McGee
If they don't enforce the laws the people support, how can they be surprised if the people take the law into their own hands?

Vigilantism is an obvious and regrettable consequence of government malfeasance. Now, predictably, some in government focus on vigilantes as the problem; not themselves and not the Illegals.

Should the government turn on the people in favor of Illegals, what do you suppose is the next logical outcome?



43 posted on 11/24/2002 7:11:36 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: MeeknMing
New Mexico state Sen. Mary Jane Garcia said vigilante groups appeal to undereducated young men

Funny, I heard many are retired police officers and others who are educated. That means, they're also not "young men." And, if they're property owners protecting their properties and families, they are obviously working and paying taxes....productive US Citizens protecting themselves and their rights under the Consitution.....since our government has seen fit not to follow its prime directive: secure the borders.

44 posted on 11/24/2002 7:20:13 AM PST by nicmarlo
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To: Sabertooth
I've read that so far the "vigilante" groups are only protecting private property and are there by invite. How can the Mexican government demand that Americans NOT be allowed to remove trespassers from their own property? I can see the danger if citizen groups start trying to stop immigration in other ways ---but we have a right to protect our property.
45 posted on 11/24/2002 7:22:04 AM PST by FITZ
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To: FITZ
How can the Mexican government demand that Americans NOT be allowed to remove trespassers from their own property? I can see the danger if citizen groups start trying to stop immigration in other ways ---but we have a right to protect our property.

You're thinking like an American, not a politician.




46 posted on 11/24/2002 7:26:55 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Sabertooth
Right now, the politicians only have to worry about "vigilanties" on the border. If this illegal immigration keeps up, they will soon have to worry about them in every city and town in America.
47 posted on 11/24/2002 7:34:09 AM PST by wcbtinman
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To: Sabertooth
Should the government turn on the people in favor of Illegals, what do you suppose is the next logical outcome?

Needs to be repeated.

Mr. Cannell said Arizona legislators will likely take up the issue of vigilante groups during the state's next legislative session.

OK, Legislators, what outcome are you looking to promote?

48 posted on 11/24/2002 7:50:18 AM PST by Sal
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To: cardinal4; ValerieUSA; Republicus2001; joltinjoe; KSCITYBOY; GlesenerL; montag813; muir_redwoods; ..
ping
49 posted on 11/24/2002 7:55:24 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
There was a similiar attempt to criminaize a group at the San Diego airport who made life more difficult for alien smugglers. While the rest of us had to show ID to board a flight the airlines did not require this of illegals. Only the person holding all their tickets would be checked. It was a hard fight with the govt. lining up on the side of the illegals but the action to stop the illegals worked. Smugglers not use the airport anymore.
50 posted on 11/24/2002 8:01:24 AM PST by willyone
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