Reply to article over Border Control

John Brogger

[John "from Minnesota"]

Jeffry Scott /Staff Glenn Spencer, head of the American Border Patrol organization, aligns his latest surveillance equipment, which includes a satellite video uplink. Spencer says he is counseling Tombstone publisher Chris Simcox and his followers to obey the law.

AP file photo Border concerns are not limited to Arizona. The Border Patrol stays busy along the entire frontier with Mexico watching for illegal activity, as patrol supervisor Dan Garibay did in 2001 in Laredo, Texas.

By Ignacio Ibarra ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Arizona leaders at the state and federal level are calling for investigations into armed civilian patrols along the state's border with Mexico.

At issue is the safety of people along the border and the legality of the so-called militia groups, formed out of frustration at the inability of U.S. border agents to slow illegal immigration from Mexico.

U.S. Rep.-elect Raúl Grijalva, a Tucson Democrat who takes office in January, said he will push for federal hearings into the activities of the civilian patrols. Grijalva's pledge echoes proposals this weekend during border forums in Mexico, made by leaders including Gov.-elect Janet Napolitano, Gov. Jane Hull and Sonora Gov. Armando Lopez Nogales.

Attending a border forum Saturday in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, state Rep. Robert Cannell, a Yuma Democrat, said the Arizona Legislature is likely to take up the issue when it meets in January.

"I think this rhetoric you're hearing from some of the leaders of these groups is very dangerous to the overall security of the region," Grijalva said. "The potential for violence is escalating and I think the whole situation has to be investigated."

Chris Simcox, publisher of a weekly newspaper in Tombstone, who used his pages this month to call for creation of a Tombstone militia, said citizen action is necessary - and legal, judging by several months of research he conducted into the constitutions of the United States and the state of Arizona.

Still, to avoid legal problems, his group will limit its work - confronting, detaining and delivering trespassers to authorities - to private property and by invitation only.

Simcox said that personally, he wouldn't hesitate to extend patrols onto public lands.

"I am not afraid to carry this on to state lands that belong to every citizen of the state they reside in. It's our land," he said. "I'm not afraid to step on that land and do the same thing, and I challenge my government to come and arrest me. We are not crazies, we're concerned citizens. . . . We are responsible people."

He said his office has received more than 1,000 e-mails of support since he issued the call to arms, many from current and former members of law enforcement and the military.

"I'm taking them seriously because they leave phone numbers and e-mails and addresses. I've got people giving money now," Simcox said. "I'm recruiting America."

The Second Amendment right of the citizenry to bear arms is generally accepted, said University of Arizona law Professor Roy Spece, but no respectable authority on the Constitution "accepts the proposition that you also have a right to form a vigilante group . . . and nobody has contended there is a right to have your own militia."

Vigilante activity interferes with the legitimate enforcement of the law, he said.

"I think it just makes their job harder . . . and I think it exacerbates the tensions."

At the Cato Institute, where gun rights are among the bulwarks of a think tank with a Libertarian philosophy, the notion that the Constitution allows private citizens to raise a militia is dismissed as "utterly fanciful nonsense."

"I don't know where this right is supposed to come from that they can take the law into their own hands . . . certainly not the Constitution," said Robert A. Levy, senior fellow for constitutional law with the Washington, D.C., institute.

Even the right to self-defense is not provided for in the Constitution, Levy said, but in the common and statutory law of individual states.

These laws make it clear that people have a right to defend themselves, he said, but that right goes only so far.

"They can't affirmatively take it upon themselves and go out proactively become a law enforcement officer," Levy said. "I can't imagine what kind of society that would lead to. . . . This is not the Wild West."

Napolitano, who moves from attorney general to governor in January, opposes the newest militia effort, said Kris Mayes, her spokeswoman.

"She thinks it needs to stop, and cooler heads need to prevail. She believes it is a dangerous situation, and that there isn't any place in Arizona for vigilantism," Mayes said.

Glenn Spencer, whose American Border Patrol organization set up headquarters southeast of Sierra Vista in August, said he's urging Simcox and his militia to "obey the law."

Spencer said his organization could have taken a more aggressive approach, like the one demonstrated by the Texas-based Ranch Rescue group, which last month intercepted two marijuana loads while patrolling on a privately owned ranch in Santa Cruz County.

But American Border Patrol chose a different focus.

The group's volunteers are encouraged to observe, document and report illegal border activity for posting on his Internet site - not for interception, he said.

"We believe in the rule of law. It's what holds civilization together. Taking the law into your own hands is clearly not adhering to the law," Spencer said. "It's tempting to go down that road, but I'm not going to do it. . . . I don't think I'd be happy with the kind of people that would show up."

The new call to arms on the border follows a long history of vigilantism there, said Doris Meissner, the former Immigration and Naturalization Service commissioner who led the Border Patrol through much of the last decade and now serves as a senior fellow with the Migration Policy Institute in Washington.

Those advocating such activity say it is justified because of government failures, Meissner said.

"There have been calls like this before. . . . It is vigilantism, and there is no place for vigilantism," she said. "It hinders operations."

But there is no justification in the law for stifling the rhetoric, she added. The First Amendment protects such political speech.

"What is really going on here is political, and during my experience as commissioner, we treated it as exactly that - a political statement," Meissner said.

"This group is tapping into a deeply embedded fear and generally a lack of knowledge of what's going on at the border. That makes it even more important to make sure there is a clear understanding of why this kind of citizen action is misplaced in law."

* The Associated Press contributed to this report. * Contact reporter Ignacio Ibarra at (520) 432-2766 or at nacho1@mindspring.com.

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[John "from Minnesota"]

I find the rhetoric of the professional activists to be typical of the programing I have seen over the years.

As soon as the common people stand up to help the legally elected individuals who have sworn to uphold the State Constitution, the professional activists always insist on the State surrendering their sovereignty to either a Federal or United Nations entity. The preeminence of the State over any other governing entities has been reaffirmed numerous times by the State and Supreme courts. Isn't it curious to see how so many other "elected" individuals and others are so Hell bent on surrendering the rights of the people to an international group. It surely brings their dedication and oath to "serve an protect" the people into question.

When the sheriff is overwhelmed with a problem, it is the DUTY of the people to assist him to bring that problem under control. I salute those who have so unselfishly given of their own time and monies in the pursuit of helping to bring that overwhelming criminal problem under control. If they fail in their efforts, the "uninvolved" people of Arizona will rue the day they so foolishly abrogated their duty. History is replete with examples of the consequences of such indolence.

My family saw a similar invasion of their home country. Many of them sat back and excused themselves for their failure to act with such excuses as "it's not my problem", "It is God's will, and it is a sin to go against God's will?", and a plethora of other excuses. Nearly every one of them was murdered by the invaders. "Oh" you say "that can't happen here". To which I would reply "He who does not know history is DAMNED to repeat it", for it is indeed a curse to not learn from those who have been through a similar invasion. I am all too familiar with the systematic use of psychopolitics* on all parties concerned and the results thereof. Those who are bound and determined to destroy the sovereignty of this Nation and it's various States know no limits. To read their comments is to understand. Their term for the common man is "useful idiots" and "cannon fodder". Their contempt for individuals like you and me is indicative of their objectives.

May you prosper in your efforts to preserve your State and your lives.

John Brogger

*Psychopolitics: I will send you a copy of their manual if you desire.

[Thud]

ping

[Nephi]

Wow, this hasn't been censored...yet.

[madfly]

ping

[madfly]

ping

[grania]

I hope it isn't. There are a lot of serious issues here.

If the federal and state governments aren't going to protect its citizens from this invasion, well, isn't that what the right to bear arms is for?

About this new governor in Arizona. I wonder if she took this strong pro-invasion stance against her constituents in the campaign.

Now that the election is over we're seeing Mexican trucks getting more permission to transport goods in the US and more talk about amnesty and the safety of those who enter the country illegally.

Meanwhile, a lot of us Conservatives wanted a ban on partial birth abortion immediately. Is that going to be lost in the shuffle? A lot of people think the borders are a bigger deal for our safety then is starting a war in Iraq. I'm wondering about the priorities and goals here.

[madfly]

Her pro-invasion stance won her the election. Matt Salmon had more votes in Maricopa County (Phoenix,Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale). Napolitano got over 80% in Pima & Santa Cruz counties, the border counties. She's bought and paid for and took a little trip with Gov. Hull to Mexico less than a week after the final votes were counted. She's neglected her duties as Attorney General, but the Salmon campaign missed a few things.

Like her innaction on getting Mexico to work with her to get these guys.

There's a thread on FR, Getting Away With Murder, on this story. Local TV investigative reporters broke story AFTER election.

Sheriff Joe's Most Wanted List

Juan Antonio Noperi Beltran Wanted for first-degree murder, Beltran is believed to be in Sonora, Mexico More >>		Antonio Perez Panduro Wanted for First-Degree Murder Panduro is believed to be in Colima, Mexico More >>
Jose Morales Cruz Believed to have fled to Mexico, Jose Cruz is wanted on two counts of First-Degree Murder More >>		Engelbert Parra-Coronado Parra Coronado is believed to have fled to have fled to Mexico. He is wanted on two counts of First-Degree Murder More >>
Juan Rodriguez Solis Suspected drug dealer believed to be in Mexico More >>		Luis Abel Ruiz Garcia Ruiz Garcia is believed to be in Mexico. He is wanted on murder and theft charges More >>
Martin Rodriguez Orozco Orozco is believed to be in Mexico. He is wanted for Sexual Conduct with a Minor Under 15 More >>		Jesus Armando Franco Believed to have fled to Mexico, Franco is wanted on charges of sexual misconduct with a minor under 15 years of age More >>
Judie Devise Blair Wanted on charges of fraud, theft and forgery amond others, Blair is believed to be in Mexico More >>		Adolfo Canez Ssuspected drug dealer More >>
Jose Luis Canez Suspected drug dealer More >>		Andres Castro Figueroa Believed to have fled to Mexico, Castro Figueroa is wanted on a Murder Conviction More >>
Hector Hernandez-Rios Suspected drug dealer More >>		Craig Bradley Kline Wanted on aggravated assault, Kline is believed to have fled to Mexico More >>
The Valley's Most Wanted Jose Daniel Camacho-Lopez Warrant out for First Degree Murder adn Armed Robbery More >>		The Valley's Most Wanted Brandon Romero Wanted on an outstanding warrant for probation violation. If you have information about this person contact: Glendale Police Department, 623-930-3000 More >>

[MissAmericanPie]

"Vigilante activity interferes with the legitimate enforcement of the law, he said."

There is no legitimate enforcement of the law going on. Out of all the parties involved here the citizen patrols are the least guilty of breaking the law.

"There have been calls like this before. . . . It is vigilantism, and there is no place for vigilantism," she said. "It hinders operations."

There is no place for government ignoring the laws of the people that hire them either. Exactly what operations are being "hindered" here? The operation to destroy America?

[Cacique]

btt

[Budge]

Their contempt for individuals like you and me is indicative of their objectives.

Exactly, with comments like this, "At the Cato Institute, where gun rights are among the bulwarks of a think tank with a Libertarian philosophy, the notion that the Constitution allows private citizens to raise a militia is dismissed as "utterly fanciful nonsense."

And, ""I don't know where this right is supposed to come from that they can take the law into their own hands . . . certainly not the Constitution," said Robert A. Levy, senior fellow for constitutional law with the Washington, D.C., institute."

These people will twist, pervert, lie or do anything to destroy this nation.

[4Freedom]

Was there a lot of illegal alien vote fraud at the polls in Arizona that anyone has discussed?

[madfly]

I've heard of nothing regarding that.

[Spiff]

My family saw a similar invasion of their home country. Many of them sat back and excused themselves for their failure to act with such excuses as "it's not my problem", "It is God's will, and it is a sin to go against God's will?", and a plethora of other excuses. Nearly every one of them was murdered by the invaders. "Oh" you say "that can't happen here". To which I would reply "He who does not know history is DAMNED to repeat it", for it is indeed a curse to not learn from those who have been through a similar invasion.

Some would say that you are exaggerating when you talk about the murderous invasions of the past in relation to the current invasion. I would call their attention to the photos below taken at the latest march held by the reconquista group Coalicion de Derechos Humanos as evidence that you may have a point.

These aren't Palestinian terrorists, they're reconquistas.

Lovely. Notice the DEAD white woman behind these two Mexican ladies.

So, how is it these guys plan to "reconquer" Aztlan again? Notice the firearm and the hood.

Red flags and banners? Didn't we see them used by the communists in the Russian and Chinese revolutions?

[husky ed]

Arizona leaders at the state and federal level are calling for investigations into armed civilian patrols along the state's border with Mexico.

They want to investigate LEGAL activity but not the ILLEGAL activity of the Mexicans. Makes sense.

"This group is tapping into a deeply embedded fear and generally a lack of knowledge of what's going on at the border." Meissner said.

That's it, we're just a bunch of uneducated hicks that don't know nothing.

Those advocating such activity say it is justified because of government failures, Meissner said.

It's not government failures. It is the government knowingly not inforcing the laws.

[madfly]

bump

[galt-jw]

I'd like a copy. good post. SOMEONE wants this country infiltrated. Not only do they refuse to STOP illegals, but PAY THEM with freebies for coming.

who in the hell do these little princes represent, we, the citizenry, or some dubious agenda designed to wreck the nation and the economy.

[FITZ]

Bush is pretty much caving into all of Fox's and Castaneda's threats and demands. They get non-stop access now to all American highways and cities. It's not worth putting up cameras at the border because they'll easily bring in illegals in buses and trucks now.

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

A wow PING

[Wonder Warthog]

"I don't know where this right is supposed to come from that they can take the law into their own hands . . . certainly not the Constitution," said Robert A. Levy, senior fellow for constitutional law with the Washington, D.C., institute.

Any property owner can, either himself or using either volunteers and/or hired guards, defend his own property. The correct analogy is the hiring of security guards-who do NOT work for any level of government.