BOY SCOUT LEADER CHARGED WITH FONDLING TROOP MEMBERS,SHOWINGN PORNOGRAPHIC PHOTOS

AP Breaking News ^ | 2 December 2002

[RonF]

If someone wants to have a different set of standards and pray to Murray or the 7th god from alpha centari and promote communal living -- LET EM! They can start their own danged group.

But don't force these down the throat of one of the finest institutions in the USA.

Why would they have to start their own group? What in this statement would prevent anyone following those tenets from joining the BSA?

[On the Road to Serfdom]

The public school administration isn't even going to allow that option/choice to be discussed.

Now I understand what you meant by "obvioius reasons", you meant self interest of teachers and administrators. I agree with you. I was trying to think of a good educational reason.

[freedumb2003]

>>If someone wants to have a different set of standards and pray to Murray or the 7th god from alpha centari and promote communal living -- LET EM! They can start their own danged group. But don't force these down the throat of one of the finest institutions in the USA.

Why would they have to start their own group? What in this statement would prevent anyone following those tenets from joining the BSA?

<<

OK, I was being expansive rather than illustrative. What I mean is that BSA is based on Christian fundamentals and one of their core values repudiates homosexuality. It is their right to reject athiests and homosexuals and if someone wants to start a homosexual/athiest group they are free to do so. There is no onus on BSA to allow them in.

Forgive my imprecise argumentaion.

[RonF]

I am not a Christian fundamentalist. So while I can't claim direct knowledge, it seems to me that BSA's principles as written in the Scout Law, Scout Oath, etc., are certainly in agreement with a fundamental interpretation of Christian doctrine.

However, the BSA was not founded by Christian fundamentalists, nor to express Christian fundamentalism. In fact, one of the earliest organizations to wholeheartedly adopt the BSA program for their youth (in 1916) was the Mormon Church, and an examination of their doctrines will quickly show that they are not Christian fundamentalists. In fact, every Christian denomination that's examined the issue has decided that the Mormons aren't even Christian.

Sorry if I'm beating this to death. But many people have expressed the opinion that the BSA is, or was started as, a Christian organization, and it's not.

[tom h]

Thanks for setting me straight. I was a scout 30 years ago but times were different then. My son is age 7 and when we finish the Indian Guides program next year he will go straight into Scouting.

[tom h]

"I wouldn't let my daughter on an overnight camping trip with a male anymore than I would want my son on any overnight with a gay. I cannot control every risk but at least I can manage risks and letting my sons go camping with gay leaders is an extra risk that makes no sense to me. "

Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head. And your words above are the simple prescription to a liberal who claims that it doesn't matter if the leader is homosexual. Ask the liberal if you can take his 12-year old daughter or niece and a couple friends on a camping trip alone. If they don't see the trap, they'll reply, "Of course not!" "Why?" you reply. Their response: "We'll, of course I trust you but it's just not appropriate that a grown man chaperone girls that young alone." And you reply "That's exactly my point about homosexual scoutmasters!" The liberal will be speechless.

[Issaquahking]

Thank you so much Jeff. Ping for sis.Yes Jeff, in my family FR is getting to be a family thing:^)!!

[Jeff Head]

Well, I am a member of the LDS faith and I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and His atonement for my sins.

I have had lengthy discussions with Baptist Preachers, Catholic Priests, Lutheran clergy and others ... after discussion, although there was not agreement on points of doctrine and interpretation ... all of them concluded that I was a Christian, despite also being a member of the Church.

The name of the Church is, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and we teach of Jesus Christ crucified and atoning for our sins, of his death and resurrection and ultimate return. Mormon is a nick-name.

So, as adopted by the Church, which is the largest sponsor of the BSA, it is viewed as the best opportunity to promote the Christian values we cherish to our young men.

To the point you are making (and I do not believe labeling the LDS faith as non-Christian is the best way to make that point ... hence my response) ... the points I am making about my Church and scouting can equally be said by any Jewish, Baptist, Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, Jehova's Witness, etc. religious organization with respect to their religious values and their young men. Scouting allows that for any religious organization that wants to sponsor a troop that professes a belief in God ... or any leader wanting to work in the program willing to profess the same. Specific interpretations and particular theology are certainly not the filters.

Best regards.

[FormerLib]

All those who are surprised by this, please signify by raising both rear cheeks!

Get ready for the "grunt!"

[FormerLib]

(Feed the bastard to a grizzly.)

There are just some things that a grizzly won't do.

[farmfriend]

Golden Empire Counsel has been doing finger printing and background checks on their own for several years now. Also, all adults are required to do Youth Protection training. No adult is ever supposed to be alone with any Scout. It protects the boys and protects the adults from false accusations as well. I believe this counsel has some questions to answer as well, they obviously were not following the rules.

[RonF]

As far as whether the LDS should be considered a Christian denomination, I've been looking at the positions taken by the authoritative bodies of various denominations as posted on their web sites. If you look on the web sites for the Roman Catholic Church (i.e., the Vatican), Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and the Southern Baptists, you'll find that they've considered the question and have come to the conclusion that members of the LDS are not baptized as Christians.

The RCC sent out a reply to a question of whether or not a convert from the LDS to the RCC needed to be baptized. The Vatican's opinion is that unlike converts from the various recognized Protestant denominations, converts from the LDS must be baptized. They are careful to state that this is to be considered a baptism, not a re-baptism. The RCC believes that the baptism that the LDS performs is invalid as Christian baptism. This is because the LDS's view of the nature of Christ, God, etc., is too divergent from what the RCC views as their essential nature for the RCC to consider the LDS baptism as being valid in Christ. Whereas, although the various Protestant denominations have some differences in their views of doctrine (not to mention church administration ...) from the RCC, they have the same views with regards to the essential nature of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, etc. All of which is explained here. I've read the original of the latter, but I can't find it on-line. However, I believe this to be an accurate reprint of it.

Other Christian denominations have either come to this same conclusion on their own, or else took their cue from the Pope's theologians. The United Methodist Church apparently came to the same conclusion before the RCC did. Others have done so since then. I can't find any Christian denomination which says that they accept Mormons as being validly baptized.

Again, I'm no theologian, and I wouldn't want to get into an argument with either you or the people you've talked to about whether the LDS should be considered a Christian denomination. I'm basically going to have to go along with what seems to be the official position of my own denomination and others. Of course, I believe that it's the LDS position that all these denominations fell into error around A.D. 300, and that the LDS is the only church that has kept true to the original Christian church.

In any case, I think we are both in agreement regarding the quality and usefulness of the BSA, both spritually and otherwise, and that being or not being a Christian has nothing to do with being a member in good standing in the BSA.

[Saundra Duffy]

This is why homosexuals should not be allowed in the Scouts. Duh!

[Jeff Head]

I certainly agree with your last statement and as regards this thread, that is the essential issue.

As regards the other, I believe people should judge for themselves, as Christ said ... "by their fruit ye shall know them".

Frr the record, I can say that Jesus Christ, prophesied by prophets of old, born of the virgin Mary, who at an early age taught in the temple to the amazement of those there, who turned water into wine, healed the sick, fed thousands, raised the dead and who ultimately suffered in the garden of Gethsimane and on the cross for all of our sins and who rose on the third day in a glorious resurrection that conquered death for us all ... He is my savior and the one who is the author of my salvation and no other.

It is to Him and His teachings that I look for that salvation through repentance and through acceptance of His name and His atonement. His teaching direct us to love one another, help one another and take up our cross in living a life as close to the example He set as possible. nThis is what my church teaches, and hat I taught as a missionary for my church and as an individual in various leadership positions since.

Christ stated that He was God the Father's Son and that He would return to earth ... I believe Him and look forward to that day, whether I see it in the flesh or not.

I call this Christian ... my church which urges all to adopt such a lifestyle (despite whatever other interpretive and doctrinal issues) calls this Christian ... others may judge for themselves.

[Coleus]

I know of a council in NJ which is doing just the opposite, they just submitted a new policy which has a NON-descrimination clause for "sexual orientation". Seems the scouting executive can not properly fundraise since the Dale Case. Which means they WILL allow homosexuals.

It's a shame they are lowering their standards and in giving in to the liberals. I think the problem with fundraising stems from mismanagement rather than the Dale case.

[RonF]

Wait until National weighs in. Councils get their charters from National. Now, a Council can admit "non-avowed" gays, which can mean that there are people who know the guy's gay but he doesn't proclaim it in public media, etc. But if the local Council is too loosely defining "avowed", or if they are trying to eliminate that qualifier entirely, then National has the option of withdrawing that Council's charter, and finding another group of people who will constitute a not-for-profit corporation that will follow National policies.

National will try other remedies first, including decertifying the Council's Scout Executive (which means he or she can no longer serve as an SE and the Council will have to hire someone else), and sitting down with the Council leadership to try to get them to mend the error of their ways. It will take National a while to go through this process. Blowing up the local Council will be done only as a last resort.

[RonF]

Thought you might be interested in what the criteria are that are used in background checks.

"When an applicant or member has a criminal record (felony or misdemeanor) that includes the following categories of criminal offenses, he or she will be disqualified from membership in the Boy Scouts of America regardless of any other factors:

A. Crimes involving sexual deviancy, sexual abuse, sodomy, sexual assault, rape, sexual misconduct or pornography.

B. Any offense involving a child or dependent adult.

C. Manufacture or distribution of drugs or illegal substances.

D. Crimes of violence against persons including aggravated assualt, battery, manslaughter, homicide and any offense in which a weapon was used.

When a criminal record reveals information that disqualifies an individual under 1. above," the person involved will be told what agency the information came from. If the person can convince that agency to change their records, then the BSA will reconsider. Otherwise, you're out.

People with felonies other than those above can be considered for membership, but both the SE and the sponsor must sign off on it and explain why they figure the person is O.K. for membership.

Note that mere possession of drugs, with no intent to sell, won't disqualify you from BSA membership as far as National is concerned. Sponsors are quite free to keep you out for whatever reason they feel like, though.

The cost of the new nationwide background check will vary from $1.50 to $6.00, depending on the state. National will cover it in 2003 and 2004. It's expected that in most cases, they'll have an answer back in 24 hours.