Posted on 03/05/2003 5:26:10 AM PST by Katya
Edited on 03/05/2003 11:14:36 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Plans are under way for an invasion of New Hampshire. Or Wyoming. Or maybe Delaware, Montana or Alaska. Sparsely populated and independent in spirit, they're all attractive targets for a bloodless coup in the making. Within the next several years, according to plan, 20,000 Libertarians would move to a single state and begin infiltrating. They'd find jobs, join civic groups, get elected and take a hatchet to taxes and laws.
Nothing personal mind you but your name indicates that you should know better where some of the other detracting posters here, the usual suspects on libertarian threads, are hopeless.
cordially,
Dear honorable u-89:
Having bible in my SN causes just that in this real world of differing opinion and if I weren't able to deal with it I'd certainly have to leave. You mention a couple of bible verses which I always find interesting coming from people I assume not to be Christian. I only make that assumption because Christians are in the minority so it's merely a probablity assumption weighed by your defense of libertarians whose opinions I also find to be particularly non-Christian.
Therefore it is a hard for me to enter into a serious bible conversation. I must compliment you for not using both of the standard "heathen verses" which are: do unto others... and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Every heathen on earth, including Metalica, seems to know these verses and is very guick to pull them on Christians when we dare express any opinion that they don't happen to like. I've studied to bible too long to react as if I've really been admonished.
My comment comes from a study of libertarian doctrine which shows me that they are very often pro legalization of drugs and prostitution and gambling and other "liberties" that they feel the government has no moral right to control. It is the bible that causes me to disagree with this libertarian point of view.
equally cordially, BW
No, a group of well known statist trolls ambush threads, start flamewars and attempt to get the threads move off the main page.
And then there were the ideological purges here, that led to most of the best leaving.
Might wanna check on the alleged goal of the site, btw... you'd find the trolls don't agree with the goal in their deeds and words (easily verifiable... pick a troll and do search, and find out if their positions agree with the Founder's intent of the Constitution or Ted Kennedys) , while we do.
Ah good. Then please point out where in the Bible it says that it is the governments job to prevent these things.(drugs and prostitution and gambling )
Might want to check to see that you aren't reading the Koran.
Got to love your type. You think you can legislate people into Heaven.
Might want to check to see that you aren't reading the Koran.
Got to love your type. You think you can legislate people into Heaven.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to show non-believers what the bible says. I also definitely don't think anyone can legislate or buy or coerce anyone into heaven.
You're always so complimentary, and cogent.
Do you keep a towel near your computer to wipe the spittle from the keyboard? Do your neighbors mind the screaming?
About all they have produced is a lot of hot air.
Its kind of funny, really - they'll break into umpteen factions, each of them looking at the others with paranoia and jealousy, all screaming "STATIST!" at each other.
You wrote: "you... I assume not to be Christian.....weighed by your defense of libertarians"
You assume much and are mistaken. I can believe biblical teachings yet out of respect for liberty and a free society agree to allow my fellow man to live as he sees fit as long as he does not do physical harm to others or commit theft or fraud. So my being a libertarian is not out of seeking license for licentious pursuits as assumed rather it is of respect for the principles of limited government that make me one. It seems that we differ because it appears you wish to live in a society where all live under biblical strictures hopefully by faith and if not by force of law (physical coercion).
As far as the war on drugs go it bothers me not if my neighbor drinks a beer, smokes a joint or both nor does it bother me that an Indian eats mushrooms in his religious practices. Neither have done me harm. What does harm us all is prohibition as we learned from the alcohol ban. This brought on large scale criminal activity giving birth to organized crime. There was the corruption of politicians, judges and law enforcement officers on a massive scale and the booze still got to those who wanted it. The WOD has proven to have even worse effects than the alcohol ban. It has led to militarized police forces, urban war zones, no knock raids, property confiscation abuses, feds snooping into your bank transactions assuming your guilt up front and a lot, lot more. In short the WOD is not only a failure in its stated goal but it does severe harm to liberty and causes severe chaos and harm to society. Drugs could not be any more available than they are today and they are illegal so what good does it do for them to be in that status? Weighing the pros and cons there is one inescapable conclusion. What many social conservatives try and do is reverse modern social trends not through evangelism and spiritual revival but through law i.e. force. That is a recipe for totalitarianism and they unwittingly ally themselves with the socialist central planners who they otherwise oppose(supposedly). Of course some would rather give up their own freedoms for the right to tell others how to live.
cordially,
Hello....many of us have been here for quite some time and find there are fellow travellers amongst the republicans.
Interesting within congress there exists the Liberty Committee, made up of Libertarian Republicans who espouse legislative goals like:
1. Stop Terrorism Before it Starts
2. Stop Identity Theft, No National ID
3. Restore Workers' Freedom, Right to Work
4. Restore States' Rights, Second & Tenth Amend.
5. Restore Enumerated Powers
6. Repeal Tax Hike on Social Security Benefits
7. Repeal Tax Entirely on Social Security Benefits
8. End the Income Tax, Restore Liberty.
I must be mistaken, these are obviously no longer Republican goals....Yeah, you guys must be right....this is fodder for the custom fit tinfoil hat crowd.
I've read messages from quite a few families who have signed onto the freestate project because they are stakeholders in the homeschooling movement. In fact schooling choices is being looked at as a factor in state approval criteria.
You know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I've always found I need to do the research myself before signing on to something. Let's put it this way, if this project get up and going with minimal success in rolling back the government leviathon...then you'll see naysayers of all stripes on the right flock to our little free state.
I'm VERY libertarian leaning, but have to agree with you here somewhat. I personally do not think that a purely Libertarian utopia is workable - at least not in a fallen world - but it's definitely a better idea than Communism which relies on the gov't for everything. Whereas with Libertarianism the center of the focus is on the individual - self-centered objectivism - and many times what benefits me also benefits you without all the extra gov't hastle.
It'll be years before I'm done with school and my medical training, but if there is going to be a "pragmatic libertarian migration," I would be interested to live a state where more libertarian principles are advanced.
As an aside, I would hope that any new candidates from this state would not be the nut-job idealouges that the LP has put forth for election in the past. I'm still registered republican and don't plan on switching until some sanity comes to the LP.
...with that, we can both agree.
I've signed on to a few of the free state discussion lists, and have to say that for the most part it's kook free. You get a few making outlandish statements(no more than here)...but they're pretty much focused on the recruiting efforts and attracting voters to pick their favorite state. I would also add that the fellow coordinating this, Jason Sorens is extremely pragmatic...which is probably why this has gone as far as it has.
You said you believe biblican teachings but you didn't say that you are a Christian. Understand that I assume nothing about your behavior or sin vs mine. In many cases non-christians behave better than Christians. If you are born again please feel free to say so, if not please be frank about that, you can be ernest if you'd rather.
I don't belive that all libertarians are champing at the bits to start shooting heroine(sp)and screwing prostitutes. I think that they have an unbiblical view on liberty and government. It sounds very pretty to tout the virtues of liberty but the bible has other things to say on the subject. There is some importing things written by Paul about one persons liberty causing another person to fall. Paul would rather give up his liberty than cause his brother to fall. That spirit is absent from Libertarian thought.
But you assume that I'd have society forced into biblical morality. This is not the case nor is it Christianities call. The bible never says "Take america for Christ" or any such thing. Morality is a fuzzy area to legislate and to enforce. The bible says that adultery is very bad but I don't suggest we legislate against it. Israel already proved that man can't live the way God wants.
Prohibition and the WOD are two vastly different things. You simply can't make comparisons to beer and wine, which Jesus made from water, and crack and heroine. We probably agree on the whole topic of weed. But sir, your phrase "neither have done me harm" gives away your unchristian position. The libertarian cares nothing about his neighbor falling due to his own weakness. The Libertarian is OK with the neighbor having liberty to self distruct as long as his own liberty is not impeded. This is were I am repulsed by Libertarian doctrine.
I disagree with your brief assessment of the WOD, it's effect to curb use, and the loss of liberty. You seem to exagerate without regard to the actual problems the drugs cause. Your statements could also be used regarding all crime with the exact same incorrect conclusion.
With all due respect, BW
Are you thinking of prostitution or murder or weed? If there was no law against murder do you think it would happen exactly the same amount that it does now, more or less? I have a very very hard time finding weed smoking in the bible defined as a sin so this first statement needs a lot of clarification for me. Sorry if I seem dense.
That is the solely the role of the parent vis a vis the child. As parents we understand those restrictions can only be lifted once they are a formed and matured individual.
Now I believe you are saying that only a parent has any soverighty over a child's behavior but a government doesn't. Unless you are talking about victimless morality issues and not morality issues where there is a victim. Again I'm not sure I'm totally following you.
Hmmm....one has to wonder why we are introduced to something like the creation story, and why God would have chosen to make such fruit available. Some of us understand that The fall is what made us authentically human, and in the face of obstacles and temptation our trial is one of choice.
It was a test that we failed. Before we failed God walked with man every day. After the fall God made them covers but that was the very last time that He walked with man. This is not an improvement to the human condition but it is obvious that God knew what was going to happen.
It seems to me that on the one hand so called conservatives tend to portray Libertarians as the "all or nothing" crowd, and on the other hand will accuse us of not being true Libertarians if we don't uphold their perceived prejudice.
What I'm simply stating, is that Christianity unlike many older and newer religious belief systems allows and enforces the notion that we are free beings on a quest to walk with the Christ, who's love and devotion is NEVER coercive in nature.
In terms of children, they are not free to pursue Life, Liberty etc. they are under our jurisdiction to grow within explicit boundaries, until they are old enough to judge the choices available. I don't think anyone is arguing crimes against children. Of course we relegate to the government certain powers to protect victims, children or adults. No one that I've read here is advocating anarchy.
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