Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Oriana Fallaci: Rage and doubt of a threatened civilisation
The Sunday Times ^ | March 16, 2003 | Oriana Fallaci

Posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:34 PM PST by MadIvan

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-103 next last
To: MHGinTN
I'm reminded of a 60s songabout some sad but inevitable consequences: "You knew I was a snake, before you took me in!"
51 posted on 03/15/2003 8:47:08 PM PST by 185JHP ( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: 185JHP
Noting your tagline ... "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace." Oriana has learned the lesson well!
52 posted on 03/15/2003 8:55:07 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
One smart biscotti.
53 posted on 03/15/2003 8:57:29 PM PST by 185JHP ( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: stripes1776
No she doesn't...
She points out is that Japan was not part of that unmoveable "mountain" that is Islam. So they had the possiblity to change, and they did.


That's exactly what I'm talking about, this is a really intellectually empty argument. The Japanese were every bit as fanatic and bend on destruction as the Islamicist today, because the true cause of such fantaticism is a flaw in human nature. Our nature hasn't change, it's same enemy, not some new enemy. It can be defeated in the same way we defeated the other enemies.

I"t is naive to think that 1400 years of an oppressive, intolerant religious tradition called Islam will be changed over night."

I think I distinctively said it will not happen over night. But 1,400 years is meaningless. Since nobody actually lives 1,400 years. All it takes is one generation to change a culture.



54 posted on 03/15/2003 9:03:08 PM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
This was on Opinion Journal a few days ago. It is really very well written and very moving. I think that I am going to buy her book. She sounds like quite a woman.
55 posted on 03/15/2003 9:07:01 PM PST by Eva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Great article.

...[In France,] nobody wishes to remove Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein means the oil that the French companies pump from Iraqi wells.

If we do NOTHING else after the war, France has to lose its Iraqi oil.

56 posted on 03/15/2003 9:09:12 PM PST by Tax Government
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: *Clash of Civilizatio
Indexing.
57 posted on 03/15/2003 10:11:43 PM PST by denydenydeny
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
The final reason for my dilemma is the definition that Bush and Blair and their advisers give of this war: “A liberation war. A humanitarian war to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq.” Oh, no. Humanitarianism has nothing to do with wars. All wars, even just ones, even the legitimate ones, are death and destruction and atrocities and tears.

And this is not a liberation war, a war like the second world war. (By the way: neither is it an “oil war”, as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or Bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the holy war that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11.

It is also a prophylactic war. A vaccine, a surgery that hits Saddam because, among the various focuses of cancer, Saddam is the most obvious and dangerous one.

He is also the obstacle (Bush and Blair and their advisers believe) that once removed will permit them to redesign the map of the Middle East as the British and the French did after the crash of the Ottoman empire.

To redesign it and to spread a Pax Romana, pardon, a Pax Americana, where freedom and democracy reign; where nobody bothers us any longer with attacks and massacres. Where everybody can prosper and live happily as in the fairy tales — nonsense. Freedom is not a gift, like a piece of chocolate, and democracy cannot be imposed with armies.

< -snip- >

The modern concepts of freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam, and totally opposed to the despotism and tyranny of theocratic states. In that ideological texture, it is God who commands, it is God who decides the destiny of man, and men are not the children of God: they are his subjects, his slaves. Inshallah — as God wants — inshallah.

Thus in the Koran there is no room for individual judgment, individual choice and freedom. There is no room for a regime that, at least in law, is based on equality and universal suffrage. In fact Muslims do not understand these modern concepts. They refuse them and hope to erase them from our lives by invading and conquering us.

Upheld by their stubborn optimism, the same optimism for which at Fort Alamo they fought so well and all died slaughtered by Santa Anna, Americans think that in Baghdad they will be welcomed as they were in Rome, Florence and Paris. “They’ll cheer us, throw us flowers,” a Washington egghead joyfully said to me.

That hoped-for bouquet is where "Islam means peace" will come back to haunt us. Our leaders do not correctly perceive our enemy, and do not recognize the clash of civilizations that has been thrust upon us by the devoted followers of Mohammed.

The founder of Islam was a butcher and a conqueror, who enslaved millions. Can true Muslims be any different? Those who emulate Mohammed will always be with us, so long as Islam remains a viable force. If we do not know our enemy, how can we hope to prevail? How can we win the War, if we're unprepared to define the peace?

If we fight under the delusion that "Islam means peace," we will settle for a peace that means Islam. There can be no victory without the unconditional surrender of our enemy. Without that surrender, all our bugles and drums and parades will be nothing more than vain charades... and we will have once again put off the real war for a later, and more bloody day.




58 posted on 03/15/2003 10:30:40 PM PST by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
All it takes is one generation to change a culture.

In the case of Japan, it took utter devastation, unconditional surrender, and a square one rebuilding and redesigning of their culture under occupation. Islam will require at least that.

Are we prepared to exact the price?




59 posted on 03/15/2003 10:44:13 PM PST by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
The founder of Islam was a butcher and a conqueror, who enslaved millions. Can true Muslims be any different? Those who emulate Mohammed will always be with us, so long as Islam remains a viable force. If we do not know our enemy, how can we hope to prevail? How can we win the War, if we're unprepared to define the peace?

Good point. I have listened to a few Iraqi dissidents speak on the radio and the impression I've gotten was that there are many Iraqis unhappy with Saddam. I've heard how he's killed many people and controls them with an iron fist. I have also heard them saying that they get along between all those other factions but it was Saddam who doesn't allow them getting together. When they were asked if they would get along and live in peace without Saddam, the answer was yes.

I agree with you, regarding "Islam means peace," I wish the administration would drop that term. Speaking of radio clips, here is one I found on another thread.

Radio LINK

60 posted on 03/15/2003 11:01:55 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
"In the case of Japan, it took utter devastation, unconditional surrender, and a square one rebuilding and redesigning of their culture under occupation. Islam will require at least that.

Are we prepared to exact the price?"

We better be, that's the only way to kill the enemy (militant Islam), if we don't kill it, it will just keep coming back and cost us more in the long run.

61 posted on 03/15/2003 11:05:25 PM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
Great link, thanks for posting that, Victoria... well worth the listen.



62 posted on 03/15/2003 11:10:32 PM PST by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
We better be, that's the only way to kill the enemy (militant Islam), if we don't kill it, it will just keep coming back and cost us more in the long run.

I think to use the term, "militant Islam" is to risk falling into a snare of false distinction.

True Islam is militant, because Mohammed was militant. So long as Islam persists in any form, so long as Mohammed is revered, there will arise revivalists who will seek to follow his path.

The choice is simple: our civilization or theirs.




63 posted on 03/15/2003 11:16:01 PM PST by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
You're quite welcome. The peaceniks keep repeating their mantra over and over again, but are unable to reply to one single question:

How does living Saddam in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?

64 posted on 03/15/2003 11:17:27 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: SAMWolf
FYI # 60
65 posted on 03/15/2003 11:18:13 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
Thanks Victoria, excellent clip it shows just how naive and brain dead these "Peace" activists are.
66 posted on 03/15/2003 11:26:02 PM PST by SAMWolf (I have a dog I trained to kill on command. The command I used is, "Is he friendly?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: SAMWolf
Right on target, Sam.

LOL, I love your tagline.

67 posted on 03/15/2003 11:28:27 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
Thanks. Kodi strikes again.
68 posted on 03/15/2003 11:35:35 PM PST by SAMWolf (I have a dog I trained to kill on command. The command I used is, "Is he friendly?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Yes. She's learned what works.
69 posted on 03/15/2003 11:37:08 PM PST by 185JHP ( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
"True Islam is militant, because Mohammed was militant. So long as Islam persists in any form, so long as Mohammed is revered, there will arise revivalists who will seek to follow his path.

The choice is simple: our civilization or theirs."

Agreed, but Islam is not the only militant philosophy. Shintoism and Bushido code of Japan is just as militant, and we were able to establish a democratic republic in Japan.

We can do it in the Middle East, and we must do it, that's the only way to win the final victory.

70 posted on 03/15/2003 11:45:01 PM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: SAMWolf; Sabertooth
LOL! Oh, post #64 should read:

How does "leaving" Saddam in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?

Getting tired. Good night everyone.

Cya tomorrow.
71 posted on 03/15/2003 11:46:52 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Besides, Europe does not care for the 221,484 Americans who died for her in the second world war, sir.

This is the most heartbreaking.

That so many Americans died for their freedom and they will so smugly give it away is nauseating.

To think so many Americans are descendants of these people is astounding.

Something magic must happen to people after they come to America.

72 posted on 03/15/2003 11:48:19 PM PST by katnip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
With all due respect to Britain & Spain course :)
73 posted on 03/15/2003 11:52:34 PM PST by katnip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bulldogs22; MadIvan
Voluptuous, Italian for "Get the flagmen, she's trying to turn around!"
I guess old WJC likes a bit of meat with his potatos.

Excellent if convoluted read BTW. Thanks Ivan.
74 posted on 03/15/2003 11:55:59 PM PST by Rasputin_TheMadMonk (Yes I am a bastard, but I'm a free, white, gun owning bastard. Just ask my exwife.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
"Her article is full of a kind of European chauvinism, that some how Europeans have the capacity to appreciate liberty but that the people in the middle east aren't. "

Whatever would you expect from a born and raised Italian? I am always captivated by Oriana's style of prose. Her ideas and notions catch you unawares and carom in another direction. She knows of that which she writes although she rambles and contradicts herself from time to time. But at the core, the essence of Oriana is her profound love of freedom. I do not care if she believes that the japanese or islam cannot appreciate it in the manner which she does. What matters is that someone as profound as her can deliver the message that freedom is dear and can be delivered to us all only at great sacrifice.

75 posted on 03/16/2003 12:02:31 AM PST by Movemout
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Movemout
"Whatever would you expect from a born and raised Italian? I am always captivated by Oriana's style of prose. Her ideas and notions catch you unawares and carom in another direction. She knows of that which she writes although she rambles and contradicts herself from time to time. But at the core, the essence of Oriana is her profound love of freedom. I do not care if she believes that the japanese or islam cannot appreciate it in the manner which she does. What matters is that someone as profound as her can deliver the message that freedom is dear and can be delivered to us all only at great sacrifice."

She may love freedom, but I think her love for it is based on all the wrong reasons and therefore I don't really trust her policy positions because her logical process is ultimately flawed.

Sure she loves freedom, but ultimately she only loves it as an extension of her self love. She loves to be free. That's the extent of her love of freedom. She doesn't see freedom as some ultimate good, it's just something she (and other europeans apparantly) happen to prefer, like classical music or greek tragedies. Those arabs, why they are too uncouth to ever understand something as refined a freedom, so just keep them where they are, and beat them down if they try to encroach on our territory.

It's the result of her atheist beliefs, there can be no self-evident truths or unalienable rights when there is no god to be ultimate standard of truth and morality.

I happen to agreed with President Bush, Liberty is God's gift to humanity, and that's why we are going to Iraq, and that's the reason we will succeed in liberating them.


76 posted on 03/16/2003 12:32:01 AM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
I can see that you are fixed in your belief that Oriana is not worthy of respect for her style of expression of support for freedom. She does recognize this state of affairs as a clash between civilizations. I wonder if you have read her excellent piece written just after 9/11. She was in NYC during the event.

It doesn't matter. I have no quarrel with your point of view in the end.

77 posted on 03/16/2003 12:39:47 AM PST by Movemout
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN; MadIvan
Thanks for the Ping and Post.

Very sobering. God bless all our brave troops.

Ivan, I checked out your sites-they're great. I'm new at site design, please tell me what you think about www.CpForLife.org

78 posted on 03/16/2003 1:05:32 AM PST by cpforlife.org (“My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Thanks.
79 posted on 03/16/2003 1:05:46 AM PST by tallhappy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Movemout
I read "The Rage and the Fury", the shorter version that is available on the web, not the longer printed version. Is that what you're refering to?

Like I said, I agree with her on many things, but I ultimately I don't see her as a fellow traveler. I think she and I just happen to be on the same bus at the same time, so for the time being she is an "ally" of sorts, but in the long run she isn't getting off at the same stop.

I'll give you an exmaple, let's say there is this person who's only interest in tax cuts is a selfish want to pay lower taxes, but doesn't have anything against high taxes in principle. That person may work with you for a while to reduce taxation, but that person can be bought, by some politician who offers to lower taxes for that bracket and "sock it to the rich" at the same time. You take the help those people give you when you can get it, but always keep in mind that in the end you can't count on such people.
80 posted on 03/16/2003 2:40:47 AM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
BTTT!!!!!!
81 posted on 03/16/2003 3:12:51 AM PST by E.G.C.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
All it takes is one generation to change a culture.

Sorry, I disagree emphatically. One may coerce better behavior from a culture promptly but the culture as a whole could take nearly as long to completely change as it did to evolve in the first place. There are examples of this everywhere around us.

82 posted on 03/16/2003 10:31:32 AM PST by wardaddy (careful of the black flag....those threads are nasty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
Yep....and Japan is still Japan.

Hobbled militarily but the old culture still exists and in fact thrives in certain ways. The same could be said for Germany.

One cannot change culture overnight..hardly. What one does is take the steps needed to break the will of those who wish to continue to impose their culture on us.

Are we ready for that? No. We simply wish to eliminate the military threats at this juncture. And, we have become so besotted with multicultural diversity appreciation that we are hardly in a position to practice cultural hegemony anymore.

Did anyone seriously after WWII, hesitate to believe that our victorious culture was not superior to our subdued foes?...LOL...hardly..we fought and died to preserve it, we had better think it was worth saving.

Regards.
83 posted on 03/16/2003 10:39:09 AM PST by wardaddy (careful of the black flag....those threads are nasty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: wardaddy
bump
84 posted on 03/16/2003 3:38:14 PM PST by yianni
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
>>>I hope Fallaci lives to be 120

I would like that too. But, just FYI, she has cancer.
85 posted on 03/16/2003 4:02:49 PM PST by Calpernia
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: yianni
Thanks...culture supercedes everything..

I'm a hegemon on this.....Big Time!

Sadly, our culture's biggest foe is more insidious...they have breached the perimeter so to speak.
86 posted on 03/16/2003 5:33:04 PM PST by wardaddy (careful of the black flag....those threads are nasty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
Vic, it all sounds great, but Oriana? Fallaci? Sounds kinda Spanish, kinda Italian ... who could ever trust one of those women? ;^)

87 posted on 03/16/2003 11:53:40 PM PST by ArneFufkin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
BTTT!
88 posted on 03/17/2003 12:08:58 AM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ArneFufkin
She's definitely Italian.
89 posted on 03/17/2003 12:11:49 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Delsoullish.
90 posted on 03/17/2003 12:17:41 AM PST by ArneFufkin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
My silly cyber-goal here is simple ... it ain't honesty, solemnity or truth. It's spewing flirtatious jibba jabba at Victoria Delsoul.
91 posted on 03/17/2003 12:21:46 AM PST by ArneFufkin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: ArneFufkin
You have good taste ... use it, please. She's a Lady.
92 posted on 03/17/2003 12:23:48 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
She's a Lady.

Whoooa, whoooa whoooa she's a lady. Talkin' about the little lady?

93 posted on 03/17/2003 12:25:38 AM PST by ArneFufkin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

Comment #94 Removed by Moderator

To: Truthsearcher
Sure she loves freedom, but ultimately she only loves it as an extension of her self love.

As an atheist, I'm uncomfortable with your doubt in Oriana's sincere love of freedom. Maybe Oriana's inconsistent sometimes, but you could be suggesting that atheists can't love freedom for the right reasons. Maybe you might argue that here at home, atheists can't be true patriots, either? I would disagree -- requiring Christianity for sincere love of liberty and country would be unamerican. Besides, it's more important what people do than why they say what they say, isn't it?

Oriana sends everyone in the west a wakeup call, not just Christians. And given the pleas for appeasement coming from the pulpit over the last few weeks in the face of Bush's force-backed diplomacy, I think many Christians need a wakeup call as much as the secular humanists: a clash of civilizations is upon us, regardless of what we believe.

By the way, I too was quite moved by our president's statement that liberty was God's gift to every human being. I took it to mean that liberty is the essence of what it means to be human, that love for freedom is universal among all of us who retain our humanity. It was powerful, and in no way made me feel less American for not being religious. What a great president he's turning out to be!

Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. --President Bush, January 28, 2003

95 posted on 03/17/2003 12:54:20 AM PST by risk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: risk
I am not saying all atheists can't love freedom for the right reasons. (By the way I am not a Christian, I am a deist.)

But I am skeptical of Orianna Fallaci's, let's not forget that she was ardently anti-US in the Vietnam War era, and she in this very article equates the Soviet's presense in Afghanistan with the US presence there today. Arguing that if the Afghans rejected the Soviet's attempt to "liberate" them, then they could reject ours as well. She is obviously a communist sympathizer if she thinks the Soviet Union has even "liberated" anyone.

Bottom line, I don't trust her. She is simply a leftist who perceives militant Islam as an greater enemy of socialism/communism than American capitalism. That's the only real difference between her and the other leftist who sees America and not Islam as the greater threat to their ideology. She may have stumbled onto some right positions, but it's for the wrong reasons.
96 posted on 03/17/2003 1:07:32 AM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Truthsearcher
Now I understand your perspective, thanks!

But you raise yet another interesting issue: she's changed her mind. Maybe there are a lot of people around the world now who are changing their minds about America and what we've done for the world. We practically invented anti-americanism here with all of our self-examination, self-doubts and such. All good and healthy things for a growing republic. But now it's time to step back and realize that we've been one of the most important steps forward for democracy in the history of the human race.

I think Oriana has understood, finally. On FOX News Sunday, Brit Hume made the powerful observation that Europe is littered with the graves of American soldiers who were there to free the continent, not imperialize it. He pointed out that once the war was won, their comrades went home as soon as possible. I think the world, including Japan, is just starting to realize how incredible that was. Those men fought for freedom, not plunder.

I'll concede on the rest of your points :)

97 posted on 03/17/2003 1:16:56 AM PST by risk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: risk
I think we are basically in agreemnt, there has never been a military power as dominant over the other nations as the US. A lot of people don't realize what a tremendous testament of our character is has been for the U.S. to be so restrained in our use of it.

In the end, I am convinced that most of the fear and resentment of America stems from what those people know deep in their hearts what they would do with that power if held it, that's what they are really afraid of, that despite all our declarations to the contrary, that underneath it all we are just like them. Luckily for them, we're not.
98 posted on 03/17/2003 1:53:06 AM PST by Truthsearcher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: ArneFufkin
Sounds kinda Spanish, kinda Italian ... who could ever trust one of those women?

Hmmm, I wonder. I know what you mean, LOL!!!


99 posted on 03/17/2003 5:08:25 AM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Thanks Marvin.


100 posted on 03/17/2003 5:10:19 AM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-103 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson