On The Edge With the New FN P90 5.7x28mm

The arms page. ^ | FR Post 3-20-2003 | by Al Paulson

[vannrox]

I can't wait to be able to buy one of these babies!

[exnavy]

It looks very interesting, I would love to try it out.

[error99]

With that magazine configuration, it looks like the
round has to rotate 90 degrees to get in the chamber.
That seems a bit odd.
But I guess that's why they say it is an innovative design.

[vannrox]

BANG

[vannrox]

..
....
....
..

[Tijeras_Slim]

You could disguise it as a boombox!

[error99]

OK.
I want one.

[vannrox]

Manufacturer:  Fabrique National, Herstal, Belgium
Type: Selective fire submachine gun
Caliber:  5.7X28mm SS 190
Operation:  Blowback
Weight:  6.6 lbs., loaded
Overall Length:  19.7 inches
Barrel Length: 9.5 inches
Magazine Capacity:  50 rounds
Rate of Fire:  200 rpm on automatic
Muzzle Velocity:  2,330 fps
Effective Range:  200 meters
 

The Weapon

The FN P90 submachine gun, along with the FiveseveN pistol, were designed to give military personnel a system of weapons that were smaller than conventional rifles and carbines, but retained the ability to penetrate soft armor and combat helmets.  The P90 is largely constructed of polymers, which contribute to its light weight and unique profile.  At less than twenty inches in overall length, the weapon is compact and maneuverable, with controls and straight down ejection that make it entirely
ambidextrous.

 A revolutionary feature of the P90 is the see-through, double column, polymer magazine.  The magazine rests atop the weapon, parallel to the barrel, as can be seen in the above picture.  The cartridges are actually held perpendicular to the barrel's axis, bullets pointing toward the operator's left, and each round is rotated 90 degrees for chambering.  In spite of the compactness of the design, the magazine holds 50 rounds of 5.7mm ammunition.

This submachine gun is equipped with a 1X optical sighting system with low light reticle, and has iron sights on each side of the scope, for left- or right-handed shooters.  There is an optional built-in laser sight, and a rail to mount flashlights or lasers on either side of the optical sight.  A brass catcher is available that snaps onto the ejection port at the bottom of the weapon.  It has a capacity of 100 empty cases.

The P90 can be fitted with a suppressor that is 7.9 inches long and 1.6 inches in diameter.  Constructed of steel and aluminum, it weighs only 0.88 pounds.  When used in conjunction with the
Sb 193 subsonic ammunition, a 30 db reduction in sound is claimed.

The Ammunition

The 5.7X28mm cartridge is something of an intermediate between the 5.56X45mm and 9X19mm NATO rounds.  This diminutive round is only 1.6 inches in overall length, with a case diameter that is slightly more than half that of the 9mm.  The ammunition is only about half the weight of the 9mm as well- a mere 93 grains per ball round.  Recoil impulse is on par with .22 Rimfire rounds, even with a chamber pressure that exceeds 49,000 lbs./psi.
 
There are currently five types of ammunition available in 5.7X28mm:  ball, tracer, subsonic, blank, and dummy.  The SS 190 ball cartridge is topped with a 31 gr. steel-jacketed, dual core projectile.  A steel penetrator is located in the tip of the bullet, as in the 5.56mm SS 109 projectile, but the aft portion is filled with aluminum, instead of the more conventional lead.  Muzzle velocity is about 2,330 feet per second out of the P90 SMG, which results in a muzzle energy of about 374 ft-lbs.

The SS 190 bullet was designed to penetrate up to Level IIIA soft body armor.  Testing indicates that it will barely penetrate a 12 inch block of ballistic gelatin, and will penetrate less than 10 inches of gelatin after defeating a ballistic vest.  Though some 15 countries use the P90 and FiveseveN systems, the weapon has apparently been used in actual combat only once:  six suppressed P90's were used by Peruvian forces during the raid on the Japanese embassy.  Unfortunately, results are classified.

Enter the IWBA

The January, 2000, issue of the American Rifleman magazine contains a letter written by Dr. Martin L. Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association.  In his correspondence, Dr. Fackler blasts the magazine for publishing a previous article which insinuated that the 31 gr. SS 190 projectile produces a wound cavity similar to the 62 gr. SS 109 bullet used in the M16A2.  Calling such a comparison "an absurd exaggeration," he noted that the P90 bullet does not match the "wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet."  The doctor further stated that the 5.7mm projectile is about equal to the .22 WMR in actual wound potential.

tangofox's Take

For better or worse, this author believes the P90 to be a harbinger of things to come.  Polymers, bullpup stocks, small-caliber ammunition, optical sights, and ambidextrous operation are here and here to stay.  Say goodbye to wood, leather, conventional layout, and iron sights (except as backups) for military arms of the future.  Illuminated reticles are becoming the rule, rather than the exception, and this is a good thing.  At least most countries are adopting weapons for the next generation that do not require batteries, unlike the United States.

In an admittedly apples and oranges comparison, the muzzle energy of the 5.7mm ball round (374 ft-lbs.) is about equal to that of the 9mm NATO and .45 ACP.  Since projectile weight and muzzle velocity for the Sb 193 subsonic round were not available, the author used the 31 gr. weight of the SS 190 bullet and the arbitrary assignment of 1000 fps as a (barely) subsonic muzzle velocity to obtain a muzzle energy of only 68.9 ft-lbs.!  A 40 gr. bullet would raise energy by 20 foot pounds, but that is still less than a .22 Long Rifle when fired from a rifle-length barrel. 

Is the little 5.7X28mm round up to the task?  That is the $64,000 question.  There are wildly differing accounts of the cartridge's wounding potential.  One would think that if the P90 had been a great success in the Japanese Embassy raid, Fabrique National would be trumpeting the results to generate more sales.  But, the world must wait until the weapon sees more combat use to see if this is a revolution in small arms ammunition or a flash in the pan.
   

[joesnuffy]

I have never met a bullpup I've liked..including the AUG
AR15 type weapon with an AK type gas system in a 6mm variant please..and keep it light & simple

[oyez]

I like. BFL

[Shooter 2.5]

I think you described Kel-Tec's SU-16. An exploded drawing was on another thread with the parts labeled and numbered.

I would like to see a civilian semi P90.

[AFreeBird]

The prefered weapon of Col. Jack O'Niell (two L's)and his team from SG-1.

[Uncle Jaque]

A cursory examination of ballistics suggests that the basic concept for this round is nothing all that new.

The old C-96 "Broomhandle" Mauser was designed around a revoutionary cartridge for the time - the bottle-necked .30 Mauser which could kick out a 90-grain .308" round-nose FMJ slug at velocities exceeding 1,000 FPS. It had a reputation for impressive accuracy and effectiveness at ranges well beyond those normally considered for other handguns of the period, especially when equipped with a detatchable combination holster / shoulder stock.

Sir Winston Churchill in his youger Military days supposedly used and was quite fond of one - as were many Russians.

Knowing a good thing when they saw it, the Russians developed a Browning-inspired T-33 TOKAREV pistol around a rather "juiced-up" version of the .30 Mauser, the .30 Tokarev which in normal service loadings achieves velocities in the 1,400 to 1,600FPS range - pretty impressive for a handgun, and I have read claims that it was, and perhaps still is, the most powerful conventional Military handgun cartridge. It blows the 9X19 MM NATO away, and has a reputation for defeating many types of soft body armor.

In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

This round was used with some success in submachine guns of several Nations, including the Russian PPSH, and remained popular until obsoleted by the 7.62 X 39 Kalisnakov.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

If I had my 'druthers and no limit of funds and machine-shop resources, I would be inclined to go with a 7MM using a 65-75 grain projectile.

This new P90 looks as if it might have potential for use as a Police primary weapon; nearly as compact as a pistol but at close ranges nearly as effective as a subgun. The 5.7MM HV round would not be so apt to riccochet off of pavement, vehicles, buildings etc. and pose a threat to innocents downrange as the 9MM etc. would, as these rounds tend to disintegrate on impact. After a couple of hundred Meters, velocity would drop off so as to minimize collatteral damage downrange. How often do LEOs have to engage beyond 25 Meters, anyway?

Rip a couple of punks in two (justly, of course) with one of these little dandies and I'll guarentee that the local Hooligans will treat your Officers with a whole lot more respect for a while!

[Taipei Personality]

Im (sic) battening down the hatches right now waiting for the pedantic johnny one notes to come out of the woodwork and pick apart my post for technical accuracy and political correctness.

Sure, I'll give it a go. :-)

The pistol cannot be owned by civilians because it can readily penetrate body armor, it in fact was designed for that purpose.

The ammunition was designed for that purpose, not the pistol.

J1N

[xsrdx]

Related thread on HKs PDW solution

HK G36C and MP7 PDW

[sonofatpatcher2]

The P-90 is nice
but I guess I'm just an old fashioned guy!

[drZ]

the FiveseveN ammo is not available for civilian purchase
and the P90 is a tad short for a legal US civilian rifle
Overall Length: 19.7 in.


BATF regulations: All components of this system are tightly regulated by BATF. The P90 (NFA, Class III weapon) can only be sold and registered to a law enforcement agency. The Five-seveN pistol is slightly different. The first sale, which requires the pistol to be legally imported into the US, requires the same procedure as the P90. A BATF Form 6 is needed which the chief or the second in command must sign. The pistol can then be removed from the Custom Bonded Warehouse and shipped to the agency. The ammunition is controlled in much the same manner, an approved BATF Form 6 is required then the ammunition can be shipped direct to the agency.


http://www.fnmfg.com/products/p90/p90.htm

[drZ]

tobad civis are exempt:
Suggested Price:
(Law Enforcement agencies only- 5.7 x 28 caliber weapons are not available to the general public)

P90STD: $1,250
P90STD Auto: $1,350

there are airsoft P90s...
http://www.mfiap.com/airsoft/p90.htm

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

I would love to own one of these babies. But our government doesn't trust us with such weapons and they are illegal to own. I thought the 2nd Amendment said our right to bear arms shall not be infringed? According to a lot of gun owners that just means hunting rifles. People need to study the Bill of Rights more and learn what it really means.