On The Edge With the New FN P90 5.7x28mm

I would like to see a civilian semi P90.

I would like to see SCOTUS rule a civilian can own a real P90.

In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

Well, no. The MP40 is straight blowback. The Stecke-lock roller locking of the Cz52 is more akin to that found on the German MG42 and developmental Stg-45 assault rifle designs, said to be German developments of prototypes taken during the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovokia.

The German Walther P5 pistol is a development of the wartime P.38 with a lifting wedge type locking system- though if you meant the H&K MP-5 submachinegun, yes, it does indeed have a roller-locked mechanism.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

The 7,62x25 is indeed *peppy*, a very reliably fed cartridge due to its bottlenecked configuration, and very suitable with reloading with bullets of .308 to .311 in diameter, both lead and jacketed...and the 109-grain tracer bullet of the .30 carbine works nicely, too.

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

Pretty close, though there are some questions as to whether to lean toward the light/fast 45-55 grain .224 bullets of the originam M16 M193 ball ammunition, or to switch to the 62-grain M855/SS109 style bullet [or heavier] for better penetration. Considerations of barrel twist rate arise, as they have with the 5,7mm MMJ, the .30 carbine cartridge necked to take a .224 bullet.

The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets.

My old C96 broomhandle serves me well; The CZ 52 and Russian TT-33 Tokarev do as well and can handle MUCH higher pressure loads. And that 71-round drum of Shapagin's PPSh-41 submachinegun offers some interesting possibilitries, too:

Sabot ("Accelerator"*-Type) Loads

50gr SXSP (Hornady) $35.97

In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

Well, no. The MP40 is straight blowback. The Stecke-lock roller locking of the CZ52 is more akin to that found on the German MG42 and developmental Stg-45 assault rifle designs, said to be German developments of prototypes taken during the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovokia.

The German Walther P5 pistol is a development of the wartime P.38 with a lifting wedge type locking system- though if you meant the H&K MP-5 submachinegun, yes, it does indeed have a roller-locked mechanism.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

The 7,62x25 is indeed *peppy*, and offers a very reliably fed cartridge due to its bottlenecked configuration, and very suitable with reloading with bullets of .308 to .311 in diameter, both lead and jacketed...and the 109-grain tracer bullet of the .30 carbine works nicely, too.

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

Pretty close, though there are some questions as to whether to lean toward the light/fast 45-55 grain .224 bullets of the original M16 M193 ball ammunition, or to switch to the 62-grain M855/SS109 style bullet [or heavier] for better penetration. Considerations of barrel twist rate arise, as they have with the 5,7mm MMJ, the .30 carbine cartridge necked to take a .224 bullet. But the Russians have certainly done some work with the 7,62x25mm necked down to 5,45mm, using bullets from everything from the PSM to that of the AK74 Kalishnikov assault rifle.

The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets.

My old C96 broomhandle serves me well; The CZ 52 and Russian TT-33 Tokarev do as well and can handle MUCH higher pressure loads. And that 71-round drum of Shapagin's PPSh-41 submachinegun offers some interesting possibilitries, too:

Sabot ("Accelerator"*-Type) Loads

50gr SXSP (Hornady) $35.97

Thanks for the correction on the inspirations and decendants of the roller system; I had picked that up on gunboards.com or parallax forums and wasn't quite sure of the numbers.

Wasn't the German MG-42 the one that was in prototype as the War ended? And yet you mention that the Germans got the idea from the Czechs in the first place? That's interesting!

Yes; I did mean the MP-5 - like the one that the INS Goon had shoved up Illian Gonzaleze's nose on behalf of Janet Reno.

Now the C-96 is an interesting piece; A freind has a Broom and a Bolo he might be willing to part with; both in rough shape but all there as near as I can tell. Both come with holster-stocks in much better shape than the guns themselves. Tempted, but alas; unemployed.

There was a guy on Gunboards who claimed that he has blown up 2 CZ-52's with loads that both a TOK and a Broom have held; he contends that the lockup is fine, but the barrel and chamber walls are too thin, and they will blow out the extractor and split the breech and slide out on the right side in front of the ejection port. That's a little scary; here I thought that the CZ was the strongest of the 3, but this chap is not convinced.

I just got a lot of Sellier & Bellot .30TOK from Cheaper than Dirt, and one of the empties I picked up had the primer blown out and extrusion bumps on the head where the brass had tried to crawl out through the extractor and ejector cuts in the bolt face. That did NOT make me happy! The pistol held, fortunately, and we have set that box lot aside!

I never had much use for anything more modern than a '98 Mauser or 1911-A1 - then along came Klinton and Brady, and of course we HAD to lay in some "Evil" semi-autos!
We still have a lot to learn about them, but with the help of an FN-49 and SKS, our education continues!

.30 Carbine TRACERS, you say!!??? Whoooo-iE!; you've got my attention! Where might a laddie come by some of those, pray tell? (Tracers / incendieries are Verbotten at our Range, but I'm sure we might yet find a safe venue to experiment in).

A couple of Korean War Veterans I know have told us about those "Pay-PayShays"; at close range they could saw a man in half; the rate of fire was awesome. Out much beyond 300 meters, though, a guy would feel a couple of taps on his overcoat, then shake a few .30 slugs out of his underwear when he eventually got to change it.

The Bulgarians tried to load up some .30TOK for their hand-me-down PPSH SMG apparantly, trying to match the ballistics of the Rooskies' AK's; I don't know how they worked in the SMG but some of them got over here (headstamped "53" as I recall) and have blown up a couple of pistols. When the ejected casing comes out as shrapnel, it's a clue!

I've been pretty much exclusively lurking on FR since this War started in earnest, but when this is squared away I hope you'll check in with and join us in:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi
or
http://pub109.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums
...although I would not be surprised if you're one of the "Regulars" in there already!

I go by the same "handle" in both forums, by the way.

Definitely looking forward to trying some of those .223 sabots in the CZ-52!

I've never had the pleasure of firing a "Tommy", but surely would love to! When I was in the NHSP ('71-76) they had a bunch of 'em in the SWAT van, but the boogers would never let me near 'em despite all my begging and pleading, darn it!

Veterans who used one in Service tell us that they weigh more than the M-1 Garand and get somewhat hefty to lug around after a while - especially with a loaded drum magazine.

But when it comes to pure, raw, unadulterated, machochismo CLASS; Gosh; ya just can't beat a Tommygun, can ye?

Re: But when it comes to pure, raw, unadulterated, machochismo CLASS; Gosh; ya just can't beat a Tommygun, can ye?

Yep, you are correct, sir! A Thompson in the hands of man or woman who knows how to shoot it, can pretty much make a wasteland 150 to 200 yards in diameter.

Its heavy and it ain't high-tec, but it can still kick hinney with the best of them as a close combat weapon! The old .45 round still packs a punch as a man killer.

We are on the same page when it comes to the venerable old .45, too!

The 9X19MM was a dandy murdering round when used by Nazis on compliant Jews at point blank range to the back of the head, but in a fair gunfight even the Wermacht, we are told by WW-II Veterans, would gleefully pitch their P-08 Luger or P-38 over the wall and replace it with a captured .45 if they could get their hands on one.

"Old Slabsides" served us well for over 85 years, and I was saddened to see our Military personell reduced to packing the 9MM; apparently our politically sensitive limp-wristed and gender-inclusive Soldiers and Soldierettes in the "Army of One" were considered too delicate to be subjected to the terribly abusive recoil and exhausting weight of the big, mean, insensitive old Colt .45.

As far as I'm concerned, if any U.S. Soldier or Soldierette is too "sensitive" to be able to handle a .45 competently, then they need to be re-assigned to the Peace Corps where they can be protected from harm by REAL AMERICAN SOLDIERS / MARINES!

Coasties, Swabbies, Wing Nuts and Postal Inspectors would be just fine, perhaps, with 9MMs or .38 revolvers.

Given the choice of sidearms to pack into hostile territory, I'll still take Old Slabsides the Pun'kin - slinger any ol day!