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Surprise, Mom: I'm Anti-Abortion
New York Times ^ | 3/30/03 | ELIZABETH HAYT

Posted on 03/29/2003 7:00:29 PM PST by madprof98

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FOR her high school class in persuasive speech, Afton Dahl, 16, chose to present an argument that abortion should be illegal. She graphically described the details of various abortion techniques, including facts about fetal heart development.

"The baby's heartbeat starts at around 12 to 18 days, so it's murder to kill someone with a heartbeat," Miss Dahl said recently, recalling the argument she used in class in January. "I don't believe in abortion under any circumstances, including rape. I think it would be better to overturn Roe v. Wade."

Miss Dahl, a sophomore, attends Red Wing High School in Red Wing, Minn., a small city that is the home of Red Wing shoes and a town where a majority voted for Al Gore for president. Miss Dahl's abortion views are not something she learned from her parents: her mother, Fran Dahl, 47, maintains that abortion should be a woman's choice.

"Nowadays kids don't grow up knowing or being aware of what was going on when abortion was illegal," said Ms. Dahl, a former nurse. "It's not a choice that I would have taken personally, but for the future of women I want to see the right to an abortion maintained."

This contrast between mother and teenage daughter illustrates a trend noted in polls: that teenagers and college-age Americans are more conservative about abortion rights than their counterparts were a generation ago. Many people old enough to have teenage children and who equate youth with liberal social opinions on topics like gay rights and the use of marijuana for medical purposes have been surprised at this discovery. Miss Dahl was one of numerous students in her class who chose to make speeches about abortion, and most took the anti-abortion side.

"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Iraq). "The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

A study of American college freshmen shows that support for abortion rights has been dropping since the early 1990's: 54 percent of 282,549 students polled at 437 schools last fall by the University of California at Los Angeles agreed that abortion should be legal. The figure was down from 67 percent a decade earlier. A New York Times/CBS News poll in January found that among people 18 to 29, the share who agree that abortion should be generally available to those who want it was 39 percent, down from 48 percent in 1993.

"Abortion isn't a rights issue — it's become for increasing numbers of young people a moral, ethical issue," said Henry Brady, a professor of political science and public policy at Berkeley who has taken surveys in this area. "They haven't faced a situation where they couldn't get an abortion." Experts offer a number of reasons why young people today seem to favor stricter abortion laws than their parents did at the same age. They include the decline in teenage pregnancy over the last 10 years, which has reduced the demand for abortion. They also cite society's greater acceptance of single parenthood; the spread of ultrasound technology, which has made the fetus seem more human; and the easing of the stigma once attached to giving up a child for adoption.

Ten to 15 years ago, said Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, an abortion-rights group, adoption was generally portrayed as an effort to find parents for needy children. Now, she said, that has changed — infertile couples are desperately seeking children.

"Young people are idealistic," Ms. Kissling said. "They think sacrifice is a good thing, particularly conservative Christian kids. One of the main sacrifices you can give is the gift of a child to a deserving couple."

The most commonly cited reason for the increasingly conservative views of young people is their receptiveness to the way anti-abortion campaigners have reframed the national debate on the contentious topic, shifting the emphasis from a woman's rights to the rights of the fetus.

Abortion opponents celebrated on March 13 when the Senate passed a ban on a procedure that its critics call partial-birth abortion; the bill is expected to pass the House quickly and be signed by President Bush, and to immediately face a court challenge. Even though the procedure is used in only a tiny fraction of cases, graphic descriptions of it since the mid-90's, and even the name its foes have given it (doctors call it dilation and extraction), have had an impact on young people.

"There's been so much media attention over the last seven to eight years on partial-birth abortion, we shouldn't be surprised that some of it has had an effect on 12-to-14-year-olds, and it is a public relations coup for the National Right to Life Committee," said David J. Garrow, a legal historian at Emory University who has focused on reproductive rights.

Britni Hoffbeck, another speech student at Red Wing High who opposes abortion, and who says her views are more conservative than those of her parents, put her argument succinctly: "It's more about the baby's rights than the woman's rights."

Tom Cosgrove, a communications consultant in Cambridge, Mass., who has researched the views of young people for national abortion-rights groups, said: "All the restrictions that the right-to-life movement has imposed young people look at and say, `They're a good thing, because it's meant to protect a young woman's health.' They don't want the label of pro-choice. The pro-life side figured out a long time ago that this is about children, whereas the pro-choice movement is focused on women and choice."

Some young people who oppose abortion, and who were born after the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 declared that were is a constitutional right to abortion, have adopted a new rhetoric. One of them is Kelly Kroll, a junior at Boston College and president of American Collegians for Life, who says she is a "survivor of the abortion holocaust" because she was adopted. "Myself and my classmates have never known a world in which abortion wasn't legalized," she said. "We've realized that any one of us could have been aborted. When I talk about being a survivor of abortion, I am talking about it from a personal place."

Margaret Watson, a junior at Rutgers University who recently started an abortion rights group on campus, RU Choice, said that because the historical circumstances surrounding Roe v. Wade are distant, her peers take the right to an abortion for granted.

"For my generation, we have always grown up knowing we could have an abortion," she said. "I look at being pro-choice as being American, to have free will. I would hope that mothers do decide to keep their babies, but I just want women to be able to make up their own minds."

One reason there may be less support for abortion among the young is that they are less likely to imagine having to consider an abortion, because teenage pregnancy rates are down: while 4 out of 10 girls become pregnant, that is a 21 percent decrease since 1990, according to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy.

Experts attribute the decline to greater awareness of AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases, which has led young people to become more cautious about sex. Studies show that fewer high school students engage in sexual intercourse, and that contraceptive use is up.

"There are better contraceptives — RU-486, the morning-after pill — along with an emphasis on sex ed, abstinence and slogans like, `Not me, Not now,' " said a sophomore at Hunter College High School in Manhattan whose father did not want her to be identified. "Abortion isn't such an issue, because getting pregnant isn't such a prevalent problem among my peers."

Some parents trace their teenagers' anti-abortion views to sexuality education programs that stress abstinence as the only way to prevent pregnancy and disease, and in the process sometimes demonize abortion. Since 1996 the federal government has budgeted $50 million annually to "abstinence only till marriage" programs, which are taught in 35 percent of public schools in the country, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group affiliated with Planned Parenthood.

Renee Walker gave permission for her seventh-grade son to participate in such a program last fall in his public school in Concord, Calif. But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of abortion, including the circled words "killing a baby." He said he had been told abortion "tears the arms and legs off."

Ms. Walker sent a letter of complaint to officials of the school district, Mount Diablo Unified School District, expressing her surprise that the abstinence curriculum had been created by First Resort, a Christian anti-abortion and pregnancy counseling group. "Most parents are busy, doing laundry, running around like me, and we're trusting the schools to reflect public policy," she said. "I had an anti-choice critter jump out of my son's backpack and was running around my house."

The district agreed with Ms. Walker that the First Resort program was overly graphic, a schools spokeswoman said. It asked for, and got, modifications, she said.

If today's teenagers and young adults maintain their views on abortion into older adulthood, and if succeeding waves of students are also conservative, the balance could tip somewhat in the America's long-running abortion war, some experts speculate.

It's unclear whether the shift will ever be substantial enough to change the centrist position of the majority of Americans of all ages: that abortion should be legal, but with restrictions. In Red Wing, the certainty of the youthful opinions of the students reminded their speech-lcass teacher, Jillynne Raymond, of an earlier generation's certainty — her own.

"Teenagers have strong opinions," Ms. Raymond, 41, said. "It's no different than the 70's when I was a teenager, but the difference is that the majority of speeches then were pro-choice. I wanted the right to an abortion as a woman. The focus then was not having the government tell me what to do with my body.

"Today," she said of her students, "the majority is pro-life."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholiclist; generationy; prolife
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I can't believe this is in the Times. Of course, I know it's the Times for real because they quoted Frances Kissling. But the quote from her almost sounds pro-life!
1 posted on 03/29/2003 7:00:29 PM PST by madprof98
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To: madprof98
facts about fetal heart development.

Not a fan of abortion, but WTF? What does the activity of the cardiac muscle have to do with whether or not I, you, or anyone else is a person protected from murder?

silly.

2 posted on 03/29/2003 7:08:10 PM PST by fourdeuce82d
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To: madprof98
"Nowadays kids don't grow up knowing or being aware of what was going on when abortion was illegal,"

Actually, they do.

They know that before Roe V. Wade, women were killing their young in spite of the laws protecting them.

The fact that it's now legal to do so doesn't change the fact that it is still killing.

3 posted on 03/29/2003 7:12:24 PM PST by Wormwood
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To: madprof98
college-age Americans are more conservative about abortion rights

Take it from this college prof and father of teeny boppers (who has talked with lots of my kids' friends): They're conservative about more than just abortion rights.

4 posted on 03/29/2003 7:13:53 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: madprof98; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ..
Ping.
5 posted on 03/29/2003 7:13:54 PM PST by narses (Christe Eleison)
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To: fourdeuce82d
It's interesting how the proabortion groups harken to the mythological times before abortion was legal. The number of deaths from illegal abortions in the years prior to Roe v. Wade were always less than the number of people killed by lightning strikes. The numbers were inflated, no, actually manufactered by the proabortion ideologues and accepted without question by the press and the majority of the American people.
An educated and moral people can never approve of abortion.
6 posted on 03/29/2003 7:14:08 PM PST by JusPasenThru (Eliminate the ninnies and the twits...)
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To: TPartyType
They're conservative about more than just abortion rights.

Ideologically, yes. But often they're not living conservatively. Casual sex and cohabitation lead inevitably to the supposed "need" for abortion. I think that's the main reason so many students change their minds on abortion by the time they finish college, as the UCLA survey documents.

7 posted on 03/29/2003 7:17:10 PM PST by madprof98
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To: madprof98
"It's not a choice that I would have taken personally..."

Lucky thing for Afton.

8 posted on 03/29/2003 7:18:04 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: madprof98
"The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled ? where do these kids come from?"

Heh heh- not going to touch that one.

Well, ok. How telling that someone so conerned with reproductive rights would have to ask.

9 posted on 03/29/2003 7:19:07 PM PST by Lil'freeper
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To: madprof98
the spread of ultrasound technology, which has made the fetus seem more human

Don't look for any bias here. Remember the good old days when you just knew the fetus was inhuman?

(sarcasm)

10 posted on 03/29/2003 7:19:13 PM PST by JmyBryan
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To: madprof98
When I was a young kid in the 60s, the neighborhood parents all thought our teenage neighbor was the antichrist with his long hair, drum set, and the funky smell of his cigarettes. Into high school in the 70s, we all had long hair and smoked dope. Nobody was upset anymore.

At college in the early 80s, I realized quick that counter culture was ruined. What to do to piss off Daddy? Mine was a Northeast establishment, preppy school, so it ought have been easy. Drugs and dress just wouldn't do it anymore. So the kids really looking to offend started kissing boys (and girls the girls). Here, it started to fall apart. Not only did the college not get upset by it, the college endorsed it with an entire discipline dedicated to gay culture and feminism. By the 90s, gay was a yawn.

So what's a kid to do these days? Schools not only look away when kids hold protests, they actually sponsor 'em! The college chaplain at my old college actually spoke to a "peace walkout" last month. Think about it: a college employee encouraged, sponsored, and upheld truancy. For the rebel, it's that bad.

So, if ya really wanna piss of Daddy, check the "R" box on your voter card. You might even get kicked out of the house.

I was. When I refused to abort my 1st child, my mother disowned me.


[Note: I'm not talking "red" America here. I'm talking Northeast establishment liberal America.]
11 posted on 03/29/2003 7:20:14 PM PST by nicollo
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To: madprof98
He said he had been told abortion "tears the arms and legs off." The young man's notes were right. I believe that an intact D&C does just that.
12 posted on 03/29/2003 7:20:40 PM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: madprof98
"The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

I wonder if you've ever stopped to consider that perhaps THESE kids--having been born since 1973--realize that but for their mothers' "choice," they could have ended up a "nonviable tissue mass" in an abortion clinic scrap bucket.

Sobering thought.

Since it's always been about YOU, and YOUR CHOICE, you never had to think in those terms. Thinking about someone else, including an unborn child, takes a very different sort of perspective.

13 posted on 03/29/2003 7:21:12 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: narses
"The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

Gasp! Those kids are hanging around with those bad seed pro lifers! If only they could be involved in drugs, having sex, robbing banks, etc...... /sarcasm

14 posted on 03/29/2003 7:21:48 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: madprof98
where do these kids come from?"

From God, of course. Wonderful, innit?

15 posted on 03/29/2003 7:21:51 PM PST by Romulus
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To: madprof98
Have you ever noticed that no one supporting abortion "rights" was ever themselves aborted? Go figure...
16 posted on 03/29/2003 7:24:51 PM PST by Enlightiator
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To: Lil'freeper
make that concerned.
17 posted on 03/29/2003 7:25:22 PM PST by Lil'freeper
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To: madprof98
"Myself and my classmates have never known a world in which abortion wasn't legalized," she said. "We've realized that any one of us could have been aborted. When I talk about being a survivor of abortion, I am talking about it from a personal place."

AH-HA! BINGO! Point for Illbay!

18 posted on 03/29/2003 7:26:07 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: madprof98
"The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

The question should be, "where did these kids get a conscious?"

19 posted on 03/29/2003 7:26:19 PM PST by FrdmLvr ("No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper.)
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To: fourdeuce82d
Because the pro-aborts tell you that it's a "non-viable tissue mass." A "non-viable tissue mass" with a heartbeat?
20 posted on 03/29/2003 7:29:42 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: TPartyType
They're conservative about more than just abortion rights.

Yep. And they don't hate their parents (in spite of very good reasons to in way too many cases) the way their parents hated their parents. I content this whole modern liberal mantra is based on parental hatred. I just never understood why it infected a whole generation.

21 posted on 03/29/2003 7:31:20 PM PST by 1L
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To: madprof98
But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of abortion, including the circled words "killing a baby."

As opposed to becoming alarmed over the killing itself.

She should give herself credit for raising a son with a conscience.

22 posted on 03/29/2003 7:33:18 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: madprof98
read later - re: abortion
23 posted on 03/29/2003 7:35:28 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: madprof98
"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Iraq). "The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

This quote is so choice I don't know where to begin...

1. Liberal Nina Verdin is shocked that there was anyone able to disagree after the comprehensive brainwashing from the compassionate left.

2. Liberal Nina Verdin was shocked that the repressive, suffocating fascism the left has visited on the thinking of children in liberal educational institutions has not worked and some children might actually be strong and confident in their opposition opinions.

3. Liberal Nina Verdin was shocked that any children would speak out on pro life issues.

4. Liberal Nina Verdin admits that she and her friends, ardent advocates of diversity, only speak and associate with others that hold the same exact opinions as themselves.

5. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that the repressive, suffocating fascists techniques of her and her comrades have not stamped out opposition thought and independant thinking in her town.

6. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that people have children who are allowed a different opinion than the prevailing liberal orthodoxy.

7. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that there may be nasty nests of non-conformists who may contact and infect the carefully crafted groupthink of the progressive and free thinking collective.

24 posted on 03/29/2003 7:36:32 PM PST by Bob J
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To: JmyBryan
"the spread of ultrasound technology, which has made the fetus seem more human"

Yeah, I noticed that absurd statement as well. The pro-aborts can't refer to "it" as a blob of cells anymore. I have interpreted thousands of OB ultrasounds - even at 12 weeks the "fetus" looks and moves like a tiny baby. There aint no "seems" about it. It = human.
25 posted on 03/29/2003 7:39:31 PM PST by Maynerd
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To: IncPen
flying pigs at the NYT alert....
26 posted on 03/29/2003 7:45:30 PM PST by BartMan1
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To: JusPasenThru
The number of deaths from illegal abortions in the years prior to Roe v. Wade were always less than the number of people killed by lightning strikes.

It would perhaps be more informative to compare the number of women who died from pre-Roe abortions with the number that died from post-Roe abortions. Given the orders-of-magnnitude increase in the number of abortions, I suspect more women are dying from them now than did pre-Roe.

27 posted on 03/29/2003 7:54:14 PM PST by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: madprof98
I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life

Many of the confident "pro-choice" kids got slaughtered in the womb. That kinda put a damper on their confidence. Neither my generation, nor those that follow will ever forget our millions of lost brothers and sisters. We have been impoverished by their murders.

Job 5
1   Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
2   For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.
3   I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.
4   His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither is there any to deliver them.

29 posted on 03/29/2003 8:06:04 PM PST by Theophilus (The Tree of Liberty is now being fertilized with the blood of terrorists & tyrants.)
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: madprof98
IF THE NEWYORK TIMES HAD BEEN AS PROSLAVERY AS THEY ARE PRO-FETAL MURDER.....

FOR her high school class in persuasive speech, Afton Dahl, 16, chose to present an argument that slavery should be illegal. She graphically described the details of various slavery techniques, including facts about sale of unwanted labor.

"They separate families at gunpoint and sell them throughout the south. Sometimes husbands never see their wives again," Miss Dahl said recently, recalling the argument she used in class in January. "I don't believe in slavery under any circumstances, including rape. I think it would be better to overturn the Dred Scott decision.”

Miss Dahl, a sophomore, attends Red Wing High School in Red Wing, Minn., a small city that is the home of Red Wing shoes and a town where a majority voted for Douglas for president. Miss Dahl's slavery views are not something she learned from her parents: her mother, Fran Dahl, 47, maintains that slavery should be a state choice.

"Nowadays kids don't grow up knowing or being aware of what was going on when slavery was illegal," said Ms. Dahl, a former slaver. "It's not a choice that I would have taken personally, but for the future of states I want to see the right to an slavery maintained."

This contrast between mother and teenage daughter illustrates a trend noted in polls: that teenagers and college-age Americans are more abolitionist about slavery rights than their counterparts were a generation ago. Many people old enough to have teenage children and who equate youth with liberal social opinions on topics like free love and the use of tobacco have been surprised at this discovery. Miss Dahl was one of numerous students in her class who chose to make speeches about slavery, and most took the anti-slavery side.

"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being abolitionist," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Mexico). "The people I associate with in town are pro-slavery, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

A study of American college freshmen shows that support for slavery rights has been dropping since the early 1850's: 54 percent of 282,549 students polled at 437 schools last fall by the University of Indiana agreed that slavery should be legal. The figure was down from 67 percent a decade earlier. A New York Times poll in January found that among people 18 to 29, the share who agree that slavery should be generally available to those who want it was 39 percent, down from 48 percent in 1993.

"Slavery isn't a rights issue — it's become for increasing numbers of young people a moral, ethical issue," said Henry Brady, a professor of political science and public policy at Berkeley who has taken surveys in this area. "They haven't faced a situation where they couldn't get a slave." Experts offer a number of reasons why young people today seem to favor stricter slavery laws than their parents did at the same age. They include the decline in teenage pregnancy over the last 10 years, which has reduced the demand for slavery. They also cite society's greater acceptance of single parenthood; the spread of cotton-gin technology, which has made the slave seem more human; and the easing of the stigma once attached to giving up a farm rather than force others to labor on it for free at gunpoint.

Ten to 15 years ago, said Francis Kissling, president of Slavers for a Free Choice, a slavery-rights group, adoption was generally portrayed as an effort to find parents for needy children. Now, he said, that has changed — infertile farmland is desperately seeking free farmers.

"Young people are idealistic," Ms. Kissling said. "They think sacrifice is a good thing, particularly conservative Christian kids. One of the main sacrifices you can give is the gift of a slave to a deserving slave owner.”

The most commonly cited reason for the increasingly conservative views of young people is their receptiveness to the way anti-slavery campaigners have reframed the national debate on the contentious topic, shifting the emphasis from state's rights to the rights of the slave.

Slavery opponents celebrated on March 13 when the Senate passed a ban on a procedure that its critics call partial-birth slavery, where one is declared a slave halfway out of the womb without the mother having to be a slave. The bill is expected to pass the House quickly and be signed by President Lincoln, and to immediately face a court challenge. Even though the procedure is used in only a tiny fraction of cases, graphic descriptions of it since the mid-50's, and even the name its foes have given it (doctors call it at birth free labor recruitment), have had an impact on young people.

"There's been so much media attention over the last seven to eight years on partial-birth slavery, we shouldn't be surprised that some of it has had an effect on 12-to-14-year-olds, and it is a public relations coup for the Abolitionists,” said David J. Garrow, a legal historian at Emory University who has focused on labor-ownership rights.

Britni Hoffbeck, another speech student at Red Wing High who opposes slavery, and who says her views are more conservative than those of her parents, put her argument succinctly: "It's more about the slave's rights than the slaveowner's rights."

Tom Cosgrove, a communications consultant in Cambridge, Mass., who has researched the views of young people for national slavery-rights groups, said: "All the restrictions that the abolitionist movement has imposed young people look at and say, `They're a good thing, because it's meant to protect a farm’s economic health.' They don't want the label of pro-slavery. The abolitionist side figured out a long time ago that this is about slave, whereas the pro-slavery movement is focused on states and farmers."

Some young people who oppose slavery, and who were born after the Dred Scott decision, declared that were is a constitutional right to slavery, have adopted a new rhetoric. One of them is Kelly Kroll, a junior at Boston College and president of American Collegians for Abolition, who says she is a "survivor of the slavery holocaust" because she was formerly a slave. "Myself and my classmates have never known a world in which slavery wasn't legalized," she said. "We've realized that any one of us could have been sold. When I talk about being a survivor of slavery, I am talking about it from a personal place."

Margaret Watson, a junior at Rutgers University who recently started an slavery rights group on campus, said that because the historical circumstances surrounding Dred Scott are distant, her peers take the right to an slavery for granted.

"For my generation, we have always grown up knowing we could have an slavery," she said. "I look at being pro-slavery as being American, to have free will. I would hope that owners do decide to keep their slaves, but I just want owners to be able to make up their own minds."

One reason there may be less support for slavery among the young is that they are less likely to imagine having to consider an slavery as immigration is up, reducing the need for forced labor.

Experts attribute the decline to greater awareness of technology and slavery-transmitted agricultural diseases, which has led young people to become more cautious about slave sales.

Some parents trace their teenagers' anti-slavery views to economic education programs that stress free labor as the only way to prevent slavery, and in the process sometimes demonize slavery. Since 1856 the federal government has budgeted $50 million annually to "nobility of labor” programs, which are taught in 35 percent of public schools in the country, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group affiliated with the Saleable Labor Force Institute.

Renee Walker gave permission for her seventh-grade son to participate in such a program last fall in his public school in Concord, Calif. But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of slavery, including the circled words "killing a baby." He said he had been told slavery "tears the arms and legs off."

Ms. Walker sent a letter of complaint to officials of the school district, Mount Diablo Unified School District, expressing her surprise that the abstinence curriculum had been created by First Resort, a Christian anti-slavery and pregnancy counseling group. "Most parents are busy, doing laundry, running around like me, and we're trusting the schools to reflect public policy," she said. "I had an anti-choice critter jump out of my son's backpack and was running around my house."

The district agreed with Ms. Walker that the First Resort program was overly graphic, a schools spokeswoman said. It asked for, and got, modifications, she said.

If today's teenagers and young adults maintain their views on slavery into older adulthood, and if succeeding waves of students are also conservative, the balance could tip somewhat in the America's long-running slavery war, some experts speculate.

It's unclear whether the shift will ever be substantial enough to change the centrist position of the majority of Americans of all ages: that slavery should be legal, but with restrictions. In Red Wing, the certainty of the youthful opinions of the students reminded their speech-class teacher, Jillynne Raymond, of an earlier generation's certainty — her own.

"Teenagers have strong opinions," Ms. Raymond, 41, said. "It's no different than the 1830's when I was a teenager, but the difference is that the majority of speeches then were pro-slavery. I wanted the right to an slavery as a woman. The focus then was not having the government tell me what to do with my body.

"Today," she said of her students, "the majority is abolitionist."
31 posted on 03/29/2003 8:31:27 PM PST by homeagain balkansvet (ABOLITION NOW. NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXCUSES, NO DELAYS. DEUS VULT.)
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To: supercat
"I suspect more women are dying from them now than did pre-Roe. Well stated, Cat. Before the Roe decision, a woman's doctor could legally abort a child (it was listed as an emergency medical procedure, rightly) if the judgement was that the pregnancy attended imminent threat to the woman's life. The Roe fiat ruling made killing the unborn a matter of choice for the life supporting woman, and no longer an emergency procedure to save a life. It's been down the slippery slope from there.
32 posted on 03/29/2003 8:38:10 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: madprof98
I realized something was going on with the younger generation when I was talking with a woman who tought the sex-ed class at a Unitarian Church. About 99 percent of the adults in that particular congregation are liberal, and most are very liberal. (I was a member there for many years, so I know of what I speak.)

She described having a session on abortion. She felt her job was to teach the kids why abortion should be legal. She said she was shocked to find at least a third of the kids opposed abortion.




33 posted on 03/29/2003 8:40:15 PM PST by Our man in washington
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To: madprof98
WARNING: The Surgeon General has Determined that Abortion May Be Hazardous to Your Baby's Health
34 posted on 03/29/2003 8:42:23 PM PST by Atticus
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To: fourdeuce82d
>>>...What does the activity of the cardiac muscle have to do with whether or not I, you, or anyone else is a person protected from murder?

If it isn't alive, why do they have to kill it?

I am glad my parents didn't practice abortion.

Maybe yours should have.

35 posted on 03/29/2003 8:48:52 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: fourdeuce82d
Excuse me ... if your heart STOPS beating, you are considered dead ... if it starts beating then perhaps you should be considered ALIVE ...?? Interesting concept.
36 posted on 03/29/2003 8:54:21 PM PST by CyberAnt
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To: CyberAnt
The heart is stopped routinely during a variety of cardiac surgeries. You were first human at conception and the first cell division proved you were expressing your individual life. Later, you received life support from your Mother at your instigation via chemical messages to her body. You began to exist at your individual human conception. It is essential that this nation understand and embrace this truth else the exploitation and purposed cannibalization of individual human lives will be brought to fruition with 'therapeutic cloning' and harvesting of these individual human beings at their earliest age in their individual lifetimes. That is cannibalism.
37 posted on 03/29/2003 10:05:14 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Dan(9698)

38 posted on 03/29/2003 10:07:10 PM PST by ALS
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To: homeagain balkansvet
Very well done! The death cultists of course will scream there is no parallel between slavery and abortion serial killing on demand.
39 posted on 03/29/2003 10:07:54 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: madprof98
I guess they wrote this as a complaint
to the NEA that they are doing enough
to program the kids into being without
morals and hearts.
The kids are ready to rebel against
the corrupt immoral American establishment.
40 posted on 03/29/2003 10:23:40 PM PST by Princeliberty
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To: Bob J
Goes to show that Hillary needs to become
President because she knows how to deal
with all these people who don't think
correctly!
Off with their heads! The tyrant comes
to silence all those who oppose her.
Its a race between the younger generation
waking up to reality and goodness and
an American establishment that continues
to fall deeper into darkness on its
was to tyranny and who wins this struggle
will set the path for the whole planet
for centuries.
Hillary is no joke she truly is the most
evil figure to come on the American
landscape at such at high level of power
and with the Government so big and expansive.
41 posted on 03/29/2003 10:31:14 PM PST by Princeliberty
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To: firebrand
You gotta read the post my post replies to...
42 posted on 03/29/2003 10:31:35 PM PST by Black Agnes
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To: fourdeuce82d
Ping to #32.
43 posted on 03/29/2003 11:21:59 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: fourdeuce82d
FOURDEUCE82D WROTE: "Not a fan of abortion, but WTF? What does the activity of the cardiac muscle have to do with whether or not I, you, or anyone else is a person protected from murder?...silly."

I believe the comparison Afton Dahl was trying to make is that even when someone is on their death bed, as long as they STILL have a heartbeat (i.e. one of the MEDICAL SIGNS of LIFE), they are considered ALIVE.

Since a PRE-BORN baby also has a heartbeat---at 12 to 18 days after conception (I've always heard 18 to 24 days)---it, too, MUST therefore ALSO be considered ALIVE.

BTW, in 1974, I was an ARDENT supporter of abortion rights. I changed my mind 180 degrees, however, when I had to do an UNBIASED simulated radio broadcast on a "controversial issue" for a Radio/TV/Film class at TCU. I THOUGHT it would be easy. I THOUGHT I would put what I then called "those religious nuts" to shame.

After forcing myself to have to FAIRLY INVESTIGATE the "other" side's arguments, I realized I was WRONG. And I realized that there are 3 questions that MUST be asked:

(1) Is "it" alive? Is "it" growing? No matter WHAT someone might want to call "it," "it" IS 100% BIOLOGICALLY ALIVE---from the MOMENT of conception! And in 9 months, barring abortion or miscarriage, a baby will be born.

(2) Is "it" human? Does "it" have DNA from a dog, cat, horse, zebra, or HUMAN? "It" has HUMAN DNA! "It" IS 100% BIOLOGICALLY HUMAN---from the MOMENT of conception!

(3) Would PETA allow a dog or cat to have its legs RIPPED OFF of its PRE-BORN body and its SKULL CRUSHED? Obviously, NOT!

Well, if "it" IS ALIVE, and "it" IS HUMAN, and PETA would NEVER allow a dog or cat to be treated so INHUMANELY, WHY do we allow it to be done to PRE-BORN HUMAN BABIES???

44 posted on 03/30/2003 12:38:17 AM PST by Concerned
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To: madprof98
An interesting point about this issue is that the changing social standards, the acceptance of out of wedlock births has made abortions less desirable or "necessary".
45 posted on 03/30/2003 12:44:00 AM PST by Eva
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To: fourdeuce82d
Just in case you might think I "just don't understand what it would be like to have a child born with disabilities," I am the MOTHER of a SEVERELY mentally and physically disabled child who neither walks nor talks nor feeds herself and who still wears diapers at 18 years of age...and I am STILL PRO-LIFE!
46 posted on 03/30/2003 12:55:53 AM PST by Concerned
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To: supercat
Prior to the legalization of abortion in 1973, approximately 39 women died per year from illegal abortions.

Since 1973, approximately 22 women die each year from legal abortions.

This is from the CDC themselves, although they try to hide this info as much as possible. Also, reporting these abortion deaths is not mandatory, it is up to each state, so these stats are suspect to begin with.

47 posted on 03/30/2003 3:23:09 AM PST by IrishRainy
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To: CyberAnt
Excuse me ... if your heart STOPS beating, you are considered dead

Hmmm...so if you have a heart attack/drown, we shouldn't try CPR? Excuse yourself.

Like I said, silly.

48 posted on 03/30/2003 7:31:20 AM PST by fourdeuce82d
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To: Dan(9698)
I am glad my parents didn't practice abortion.

from your literary comprehension, it appears they attempted to, but it went hideously awry. Reread the post, silly person.

49 posted on 03/30/2003 7:33:06 AM PST by fourdeuce82d
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To: Concerned
I DIdn't mean tO suggesT I support ABORTION OR that babies SHOULD BE KILLED (see how stupid all caps look?).

I meant to suggest that the presence or absence of a heartbeat was a pretty stupid way of distinguishing whether we are talking about a person- If your heart is stopped during surgery, are you not a person? If your head is severed, but you body is put on a respirator to keep the organs fresh for transplant, are you still alive? Is the body a person?

50 posted on 03/30/2003 7:36:58 AM PST by fourdeuce82d
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