Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic

Weekly Standard (via Matt Drudge) ^ | April 17, 2003 | SB00

[Terriergal]

The next thing the Bishop might say is to order Torie (not Catholic or even religious at all) to stop posturing himself...

Torie, if you're not Catholic or religious at all I find it funny that you think you know how to best run a church. Even the most experienced Christians find it extremely challenging. The Church has dual citizenship, in heaven, and on earth. The heavenly authority is foremost, and always takes precedence over our earthly citizenship. So the argument that what a church does is "unAmerican" is rather moot to the church involved, if what they are doing is in obedience to God.

[Torie]

Suppose I claimed to be a member of a certain private association and showed open contempt for its beliefs

Just say I am a fraud, and a disruptor, and should be banned. But don't purport to order me around. Just punish me within your jurisdiction, and within the secular law.

[Desdemona]

I'm going to bed. Anyone care to straighten out this Bozo?

Babe, it's probably hopeless.

Have a good Good Friday.

[GirlShortstop]

But the Bishop doesn't think Daschle is Catholic either, so Daschle and I in that sense are in the same box.

I remain unconvinced that your example applies.  The letter/announcement by the Bishop was delivered to a person who claimed himself as a Catholic.  You and Dashole are not (or were not) in the "same box".  FReegards.

[jwalsh07]

I haven't seen the Bishops letter so I am reticent to comment on specific wording one way or the other.

Catholics do not get excommunicated, they excommunicate themselves by their actions and the church simply acknowledges such in public. The "choice" is Tom Daschle's, he can choose to be a Catholic or he can choose to be NARAL's man of the year but the two are mutually exclusive.

[RyeWhiskeyJoe]

Thanks for the update. Could you supply the number or date of the Papal encyclical that made this change? It has been several years since I took some preliminary classes and considered studying for the priesthood. I know there hasn't been a Canon Law Council since then so it would have had to have been a Papal encyclical. I ask becuase in the early 80's, several US Bishops issued church encyclical letters (which are simply that Bishop's interpretation of Canon Law) to convince many US Catholics that this practice was OK with the Pope and was accepted Canon Law, which was definately NOT true. The Pope put out several cease and desist letters to the US Bishops--all of which were ignored. Eventually, some administrative Bishops in Rome also published letters and opinions supporting this practice. None of these actions, however, constitute a change in Canon Law, and I am not aware of any such action by the Pope that gave credence to this practice. Your term "by Rome" intrigues me because I am definately under the impression that only a Canon Law Council or a Papal Encyclical can make such a change come about. I could have missed it, but if not, this is the kind of liberal 'misdirection' within the Church that has been causing strife ever since Vatican II.

[edwin hubble]

"Just punish me within your jurisdiction, and within the
secular law. "

You agree, then, that the church should limit its actions to a public announcement that Daschle is not a member.

"Secular law", however, would allow an injunction against Daschle if he used used the good name and good offices of the Church for political gain in a fraudulent way to the detriment of the church. This was my point. If I falsely claimed to be a Scientologist and espoused eugenics in their name that might be actionable.

[Desdemona]

Since you don't claim to be Catholic, unlike Daschle (it's GERMAN, not French), no bishop is going to tell you to quit claiming it.

Tommy claims it but doesn't even attend Mass (at least the Kennedeys go to Mass) let alone following the faith in all other parts of his life - as we are required to do (and are bound by our consciences to do so). Therefore, his brave bishop has told him to quit claiming it. That's all. We don't want any part of him.

[Terriergal]

as long as several thousand or million other Catholics who publically advocated policies The Church thought beyond the pale were excommunicated as well,

So you want all or nothing? You want a church without hypocrisy? Then you wouldn't fit in, nor would any other human being who has lived (aside from Christ though I hesitate to stop at calling him simply a 'human being' because that is not complete enough.)

Sometimes Christians exercise mercy and it comes off to others looking like hypocrisy, sometimes it's just cowardice masquerading as mercy/forgiveness. It is never going to be perfect, because we're all trying to figure out just how we should now live according to this Bible we believe is true.

But you're right, many blatant hypocrites should have church discipline exercised on them ... but if you ever find yourself belonging to a church you will find out how difficult it is to motivate human beings to stand up against the evil that is being preached by the left as being "OK"... even Christians have trouble being bold in things they truly believe, and I apologize for that. I find it frustrating too, but that does not make me say they should not exercise any church discipline. In fact, perhaps I should encourage them so they will do it more often. (that would take care of many hypocrites without even confronting them... kind of like liberating Iraq might serve as an example to other terrorist harboring states.)

[Torie]

I agree with your first statement. The secular law would however dicatate that the courts toss out any lawsuit regarding anybody claiming which religion he subscribed to aeo instante, on a host of grounds, constitutional and otherwise. Indeed, it would be deemed frivolous and vexatious, and if such lawsuits presisted, would be subject to sanctions, or a lawsuit for malicious prosecution.

[Terriergal]

Therefore, his brave bishop has told him to quit claiming it. That's all. We don't want any part of him.

Oh I don't want HIM you can have HIM
HE is to FAT for me
He is to FAT for me
Oh I don't want HIM
you can have HIM
He is to FAT for me

What ever will Tommy do? No one wants him! (boo hoo!) Whatever you do, don't send him over to us Protestants!

;-)

[nickcarraway]

Another soup eater:

Another Souper Candidate?

[edwin hubble]

Actually, lawsuits are heard and settled all the time on matters of which of two feuding congregations or parts of congregations own a church. Not a problem.

and the the bishop has a duty and absolute right to admonish someone publicly who shows open contempt for its teachings, and claims membership for political profit.

I applaud his courage. He's finally doing his job.

[Torie]

You are referring to lawsuits over who owns the real estate. That is an entirely different matter from speech.

[Desdemona]

Polka music. ARGH!!!!

Tommy...I don't religion of any variety is big in his life - except that of power.

This bishop deserves MAJOR kudos. We've been waiting for one to make this kind of move.

[edwin hubble]

The essence is membership and who defines it.

[capitan_refugio]

You make a good point, regarding the Spanish Inquisition being a "special case." Indeed, in Spain as early as 1478, the Spanish Inquisitors were a tool of the Spanish crown, not controlled by Rome. Tomas de Torquemada became infamous for his use of torture, intimidation, and terror in the name of religion. He is estimated to have burned over 2,000 people at the stake (mostly "apostate" Jews and Moors).

The Spanish Inquisition became so notorious, it shocked the sensibilities in other parts of the Church. Although there were other Inquisitions (the term was still used as late as 1908), they were less invasive. It was this notoriety that, I believe, the earlier poster was referring to.

I appreciate your insights and comments.

[capitan_refugio]

I meant those questions to be rhetorical! ;^)

I am in no position, and have no desire, to comment on individuals personal situation. I do know that there are many, many websites that deal with canon law. If you are interested in doing your own research, just google "Catholic marriage divorce annullment" and see what pops up.

[Dec31,1999]

Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic

It's about time. Next are all the child-molesting priests and Cardinals, not to mention their defenders, including the Pope. Perhaps them I can bring my children to the Church.

[american colleen]

People in MA think that the state and the nation cannot live without EMK in the Senate.

Not this people! I'd crawl on my knees all the way to the chancery with ashes and sackcloth and a rosary and with tears of gratitude if I thought the bishop would speak out about EMK and his konvenient katholicism.

I've been trying for years to find someone/anyone to admit they vote for EMK... no takers. But I do hear, "he's so good to the old people, he really cares" "look at all the big dig money" (stolen from other states) "he takes care of the poor" - it ain't easy being a conservative in this state!