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Y Chromosomes Sketch New Outline of British History
NY Times ^ | May 27, 2003 | NICHOLAS WADE

Posted on 05/27/2003 3:49:55 PM PDT by Pharmboy

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To: Savage Beast
Looks to me like those Celtic men had the last laugh. It also looks like they had an (understandable) hankering for those Scandanavian babes.

I believe it's just the opposite. The Mitochondrial DNA line is preserved in the females. So if an invader came in and killed all the males and took their women as wives exclusively, then the DNA record would show their descendents as having 100% DNA of the conquered people and no DNA from the invaders.

41 posted on 11/29/2004 10:29:49 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Pharmboy
Started reading this article, and ended up with 13 tabs to various linked articles..
All sort of related stuff..
Thanks for an interesting read..
42 posted on 11/29/2004 10:56:47 PM PST by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: marsh2
Lots of information on the Viking settlement in York may be found on this site run by the York Archaeological Trust:

Jorvik, the Vikin city

Coincidentally, I am half Scot and half Dane.

43 posted on 11/30/2004 12:27:07 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: quebecois

well, not really -- the immigrants are only about 5% of the UK's population and the Indian immigrants still outnumber the Pakis


44 posted on 11/30/2004 1:27:54 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: Bedford Forrest

well, the picts seem to have become the Highlander folks while the lowlander Scots are descendents of the Scotti tribe that came over from Ireland around the 1st century.


45 posted on 11/30/2004 1:29:04 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: Drammach; blam

You're very welcome. But, for fairness sake, I dabble--Blam is the pro on this stuff. Perhaps he can add you to his ping list.


46 posted on 11/30/2004 6:25:20 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Pharmboy; Drammach; Cronos
"You're very welcome. But, for fairness sake, I dabble--Blam is the pro on this stuff. Perhaps he can add you to his ping list."

Ha! I'm a retired chip-maker...This is just a hobby, I dabble too.

FReeper Coyoteman is our practicing archaeologist...PhD I believe. (He's the pro...)

47 posted on 11/30/2004 6:50:46 AM PST by blam
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To: zot

ping.


48 posted on 11/30/2004 7:34:16 AM PST by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Just mythoughts

bookmarked


49 posted on 11/30/2004 7:44:08 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: FreedomCalls; blam
old links, probably expired, emphasis mine, reprised from another topic or two:
Fathers can be influential too
by Eleanor Lawrence
Biologists have warned for some years that paternal mitochondria do penetrate the human egg and survive for several hours... Erika Hagelberg from the University of Cambridge, UK, and colleagues... were carrying out a study of mitochondrial DNAs from hundreds of people from Papua-New Guinea and the Melanesian islands in order to study the history of human migration into this region of the western Pacific... People from all three mitochondrial groups live on Nguna. And, in all three groups, Hagelberg's group found the same mutation, a mutation previously seen only in an individual from northern Europe, and nowhere else in Melanesia, or for that matter anywhere else in the world... Adam Eyre-Walker, Noel Smith and John Maynard Smith from the University of Sussex, Brighton, UK confirm this view with a mathematical analysis of the occurrence of the so-called 'homoplasies' that appear in human mitochondrial DNA... reanalysis of a selection of European and African mitochondrial DNA sequences by the Sussex researchers suggests that recombination is a far more likely cause of the homoplasies, as they find no evidence that these sites are particularly variable over all lineages.
Is Eve older than we thought?
by Sanjida O'Connell 15th April 1999
"Two studies prove that the estimation of both when and where humanity first arose could be seriously flawed... The ruler scientists have been using is based on genetic changes in mitochondria, simple bacteria that live inside us and control the energy requirements of our cells. Mitochondria are passed from mother to daughter and their genes mutate at a set rate which can be estimated - so many mutations per 1,000 years... However, these calculations are based upon a major assumption which, according to Prof John Maynard Smith, from Sussex University, is 'simply wrong'. The idea that underpins this dating technique is that mitochondria, like some kinds of bacteria, do not have sex... Two groups of researchers, Prof Maynard Smith and colleagues Adam Eyre-Walker and Noel Smith, also from Sussex, and Dr Erika Hagelberg and colleagues from the University of Otago, New Zealand, have found that mitochondria do indeed have sex - which means that genes from both males and females is mixed and the DNA in their offspring is very different... Prof Maynard Smith and his colleagues stumbled over mitochondria having sex in the process of tracking the spread of bacterial resistance to meningitis... For the 'out-of-Africa' theory to hold water, the first population would have to have been very small. Sexually rampant mitochondria may put paid to this idea. Maynard Smith thinks that the origin of humanity is much older - may be twice as old - which, according to Eyre-Walker, means we are likely to have evolved in many different areas of the world and did not descend from Eve in Africa."

50 posted on 11/30/2004 9:02:16 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: blam

I'm a former pro--MA and 10 years of fieldwork, but all here in the US. I find this Euro stuff more interesting as a hobby like you, though I think you have a lot more energy devoted to it. I've just read a few books on the Celts and know my Iberian history pretty well.

Now that I am a code monkey, I find myself having less time to research all these interesting tidbits. *sigh* Living in an apartment makes it tough to practice my flintknapping skills too.


51 posted on 11/30/2004 9:02:38 AM PST by Betis70 (I'm only Left Wing when I play hockey)
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To: Pharmboy
I find this to be fascinating. I think I missed my true calling....studying genetics, tracing DNA, etc. It is really a study of human history.

I have traced my own ancestry back to the mid-1600's due to the strict church records kept by the Lutheran Church in Sweden. It is not as accurate as the study of DNA, but fascinating, nonetheless, to peek back at historical records that list names, titles, job descriptions, offspring, and sometimes a short narrative about the lives of ancestors.

English history is so interesting. About 15-20 years ago there was a program on TV called the "Story of English." It was a series of programs that studied the different cultures that have influenced this small island country over time. The program also explained that the English language is so rich because of the different languages that have been introduced throughout English history. Due to England's seafaring abilities and the strive to colonize, the English language was spread around the world. It is now the language of choice in the economic and social world, due mainly because of the language spoken in the country that started out as a group of English colonies....the United States.
52 posted on 11/30/2004 9:08:47 AM PST by Swede Girl
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To: Pharmboy

>>I'd love to get my Y chromosomes tested

I know this is an oldish article (resurrected recently) but there are testing services that do this very thing. They will also take a look see at your mtDNA to look at your mother's side as well. Of course all this genetic evidence loses a lot the further back you go--you can not see any influence from your paternal grandmother or your maternal grandfather for instance.

http://genealogy.about.com/cs/geneticgenealogy/a/dna_tests.htm


53 posted on 11/30/2004 9:10:22 AM PST by Betis70 (I'm only Left Wing when I play hockey)
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To: Swede Girl

>>I have traced my own ancestry back to the mid-1600's due to the strict church records kept by the Lutheran Church in Sweden. It is not as accurate as the study of DNA

Probably more accurate in some ways because of the limitations of genetic studies. They only follow the outer branches of your family tree, while your document research filled in all the detail in the middle. A combo of the two would be great fun.

Wow till the mid-1600s, that is impressive. I think my very limited research goes back 4 generations at most. Sadly on my mom's side we have very little information as she was orphaned at a very early age.


54 posted on 11/30/2004 9:13:35 AM PST by Betis70 (I'm only Left Wing when I play hockey)
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To: Betis70

It has been a lot of fun...time-consuming, but fun. Sweden is probably the easiest country to trace records in. The church records were very strict since the reformation and everyone had to report everything that went on in the family to the church for census keeping. It was the state law and you were punished if you did not.

This has been a boon to genealogists today and a lot of Swedes have their family history going back to the 1600's right at their finger-tips. A few lucky families have been able to trace back to the 1400's if their own families kept the records and handed them down. This is especially true if families stayed in the immediate area for all of this time.

I am sure that most of the information is accurate as everything was so strictly managed. It would be interesting to couple the findings with DNA studies. I have found dozens of distant cousins through my searches. They are always interested in learning about a branch of the family tree that emigrated to America.


55 posted on 11/30/2004 10:25:33 AM PST by Swede Girl
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping. Interesting link between the Celts and the Basques. Most Anglo-Saxon descendants should be in East Anglia, not Ireland or Scotland or the south or west of England. Maybe y-DNA testing will eventually find the difference between Angles and Saxons, instead of lumping them together.


56 posted on 11/30/2004 2:29:17 PM PST by zot (GWB -- four more years!)
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To: blam; BJB
Re; the Tuatha de Danaan being somehow related to the tribe of Dan -- we must beware of jumping to conclusions just because the name of one group when translated into our language sounds similar to the name of another group when translated into our language. Even the pronounciation of the two words is different -- a sharp "a" sound in Dan and a long drawn "aaa" in Daaanan.

The Celts are too old to be descended from the tribes of Israel -- too old and too different (linguistically, ethnically, physically, culturally, religiously etc)

The problem with the entire 'lost tribes' thing is that we mix Biblical prophecy with hard nosed facts. It's ok if we take one or the other, but most proponents of the lost tribes theory jump between the two in a most confusing manner like oh, it doesn't work out in that so let's use that.

With regards to Fomorians being a Black race, I'd say "there's no such thing as a black race" -- there were speculations that the picts (pictarii or painted ones) were not "white" either, but these again are speculations

These groups COULD have been a darker skinned people, but I would doubt they were Negroid. Why? Because some amount of their genes would have survived and you would have had the Irish or Scots with some Negroid features (maybe not dark skin but perhaps broader noses?). Could they have been brown skinned people from North Africa/the Middle East? Possibly.

57 posted on 11/30/2004 7:30:53 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: Pharmboy

How does this explain Prince Charles' elephant genes?


58 posted on 11/30/2004 7:32:38 PM PST by cyborg ( Hy verkwik my siel; Hy lei my in die spore van geregtigheid, om sy Naam ontwil.)
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To: Swede Girl; Lutonian
QUite interesting -- the story of England -- a land which has been touched by Neolithic peoples, Celts, Phoenicians, Romans, Picts (dunno if they could be classified as Celts, jury's still out on that), Saxons, Frisians, Angles, Jutes, Danes, Normans, French, Jews and now Poles, Indians etc.

The acceptance of diversity is really what made the country great -- a let's use all of this to build a strong nation without being a homogenous state.
59 posted on 11/30/2004 7:34:59 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: cyborg

Was that an African elephant or an Asian elephant? The Brits were in India for a while, eh?


60 posted on 11/30/2004 7:36:39 PM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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