A.P.A. Debates Pedophilia, Gender-Identity Disorder, Sexual Sadism

NARTH ^ | 28 May 2003 | Linda Ames Nicolosi

[Remedy]

"Should These Conditions Be Normalized?" : American Psychiatric Association Symposium Debates Whether Pedophilia, Gender-Identity Disorder, Sexual Sadism Should Remain Mental Illnesses

On Monday, May 19th, 2003 in San Francisco, at a symposium hosted by the American Psychiatric Association, several long-recognized categories of mental illness were discussed for possible removal from the upcoming edition of the psychiatric manual of mental disorders.

Among the mental illnesses being debated in the symposium at the APA's annual convention were all the paraphilias--which include pedophilia, exhibitionism, fetishism, transvestism, voyeurism, and sadomasochism.

Also being debated was gender-identity disorder, a condition in which a person feels persistent discomfort with his or her biological sex. Gay activists have long claimed that gender-identity disorder should not be assumed to be abnormal, when, they say, it is usually an expression of healthy prehomosexuality.

Dr Robert Spitzer responded to the symposium as a discussant, urging that the paraphilias and gender-identity disorder be retained in the psychiatric manual.

Disagreeing, Psychiatrist Charles Moser of San Francisco's Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality and co-author Peggy Kleinplatz of the University of Ottawa presented a paper entitled, "DSM-IV-TR and the Paraphilias: An Argument for Removal." They argued that people whose sexual interests are atypical, culturally forbidden, or religiously proscribed should not, for those reasons, be labeled mentally ill.

First, they say, different societies stigmatize different sexual behaviors. Furthermore, the existing research cannot distinguish people with the paraphilias, they say, from "normophilics" (the term the authors use for people with conventional sexual interests), so there is no reason to diagnose paraphilics as either a distinct group, or psychologically unhealthy.

Besides, Moser and Kleinplatz add, psychiatry has no baseline, theoretical model of what, in fact, constitutes normal and healthy sexuality to which it could compare people whose sexual interests draw them to children or sadism/masochism.

Earlier, in the December 2002 issue of a prestigious journal, the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Moser--along with several other prominent mental-health experts--argued in favor of de-pathologizing pedophilia. Some of the commentators writing in that issue said that there is little or no proof that sex with adults is harmful to minors. Another mental-health expert argued that society should not discriminate against adults who are attracted to children--noting that many beloved authors and public figures throughout history have been high-functioning individuals who could actually be classified as pedophiles.

"Any sexual interest," Moser concluded in his Archives commentary, "can be healthy and life-enhancing."

Psychiatry's Method for Defining "Mental Illness" Has Changed

Moser and Kleinplatz note that the A.P.A. once categorized a condition as a mental illness based on its psychological, emotional or developmental origins, along with the unconscious motivations that were theorized to cause the condition.

But during the last three decades, psychiatry has moved away from reliance on theories of causation--theories which, typically, cannot be verified--and instead sought direct, empirically provable evidence; not of the pathological origins of a condition, but of its disabling effect in the present. Without such evidence for observable distress and disability, a condition is generally not considered to be a mental disorder.

People with "sexually unusual" interests, Moser and Kleinplatz note, may in fact be quite happy and well-adjusted. But the APA's labeling of their conditions as "pathological" fuels social discrimination against them, Moser and Kleinplatz warn, which can lead to distress and discrimination that is psychologically damaging.

Furthermore, they say, since the A.P.A. has no concept of what "healthy sexuality" or even a "healthy personality" actually entails, then how can psychiatry presume to define "unhealthy" sexuality? And since many people engaging in these unusual behaviors are not "distressed" or "disabled" by their interests, how can the A.P.A. justify continuing to pathologize them?

"People with Paraphilic Sexual Interests Suffer Like Homosexuals Did Before the 1973 Decision"

"The situation of the paraphilias at present," Moser and Kleinplatz conclude, "parallels that of homosexuality in the early 1970's."

Following the presentation of the papers at the symposium, Dr. Robert Spitzer responded with a defense based on a concept of natural law, as established by evolution.. Spitzer is the author of a study on change of sexual orientation that he presented at the 2001 American Psychiatric Association convention.

"Dr. Moser is incorrect," Spitzer said, "when he argues that there is no scientific basis for distinguishing the paraphilias from more common sexual behaviors. In all cultures, as children become adolescents, they develop an interest in sexual behavior. That is how we are designed - whether you believe this design is the work of God, or by evolution through natural selection. This design is clearly for the purpose of facilitating pair bonding and interpersonal sexual behavior.

"The paraphilias, when severe, impair interpersonal sexual behavior," Spitzer continued. "Sexual behavior that facilitates caring bonding between people is normal - and that which impairs it is abnormal, not merely an atypical variation. What is needed is more research on the treatment of the paraphilias, particularly pedophilia. To remove them from DSM-V would be the end of this much-needed research."

"More Research" Will Not Provide More Answers

"What is needed is not more research," NARTH's Joseph Nicolosi countered in response to reports describing the symposium. "What psychology really needs for its advancement is not another study, but a more accurate worldview. That worldview must take into account our creator's design, which inevitably involves gender complementarity.

"And," Nicolosi added, "we must agree on those things that genuinely enhance human dignity. It's a measure of how low the psychiatric establishment has sunk, that it would even debate the idea that pedophilia, transvestism, and sado-masochism could ever be expressions of true human flourishing."

Psychoanalyst Johanna Tabin, Ph.D., of NARTH's Scientific Advisory Committee, also commented on the A.P.A. symposium. "If the arguments prevail that are given for ignoring these psychological problems, then suicide attempts must be considered normal when they are desired by the participants. And what about the sociopath, who--having no conscience--feels quite content with himself?"

"Uncommon 'common sense,'" Dr. Tabin added, "is sure to reassert itself--but in the meantime, the mental health professions are failing many suffering individuals by rigidly adopting political correctness as the guide as to when people need help.

"And the saddest thing about the current climate," she added, "is that people who ask for help because they are not at ease with homosexual impulses, right now are frequently forbidden to obtain it."

[Remedy]

Romans 1: 28 - 32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What Is "A Homosexual" Kinsey's published data reveal that homosexuals are much more willing to "try it" with an animal, a child, a man, many women, or for that matter "something completely different."

The Decline of a Nation

[Billthedrill]

Good Lord - looks like it's time for BtD to come out of the closet. Yep, folks, I'm...a normophilic.

I'm so ashamed...

[Libertarianize the GOP]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[Billthedrill]

BTW, I'm not sure I'd lean too heavily on Kinsey as an authority on anything in the field. The guy had...issues...

[Remedy]

San Francisco Sodomite psychobabble ping

[Uncle Miltie]

"There is nothing wrong with homosexuality pedophilia. People are born that way. Who are we to judge?" </moral relativism>

[Remedy]

Dr. Judith Reisman

[Billthedrill]

You haven't changed much beside your nick, have you? A link isn't an argument - say what you want to say, don't make others chase it down. Please?

[RLK]

Should the APA and the DSM be denormalized?

[visualops]

sought direct, empirically provable evidence; not of the pathological origins of a condition, but of its disabling effect in the present

So the claim is pedophilia has no disabling effects?
S&M has no disabling effects?
So if a guy chains a 12 year old girl up in his basement and molests her for months, that's not sick?

I think the white coats are on the wrong people.

This is more than just a religious issue. This is an issue of nurturing, civilized behavior that concerns the general well-being of humans, including hope for the future.

[kegler4]

If you're going to post more of your mostly useless references you might consider the source.

It's been shown time and again that Kinsey's research was terribly flawed because of the samples used. As a result, the conclusions are completely suspect. You should know this considering your supposed expertise in this topic.

Many of your legal references are also basically useless because they were compiled by groups with a certain viewpoint and therefore are not meant to be objective. These people aren't going to show the research or legal arguments that support the other side and neither will you. If I had enough legal expertise, I could probably file a brief that would persuasively argue that the sky is green. That's the nature of the beast. Just because a brief is filed in a court case doesn't make it true. Or did you not know that?

However, I'll surprise you by agreeing that these things being discussed most certainly should not be considered "normal."

[kegler4]

Let me change that to "most" of these things being discussed shouldn't be considered normal. Something tells me that the vast majority of people have participated in some form of voyeurism, even it is as simple as looking at a Playboy or Playgirl. I'm sure you've never done that, though.

[ImaGraftedBranch]

This is the group that started it all going downhill. Satan is the chairman of the APA. Defining homosexuality as normal was the downfall.

Now, it will be every other deviant behavior defined as normal. These people are mentally ill. There is nothing normal or natural about doing the things they do.

My preacher believes that things are getting better in the world. Not me.I know things are getting worse because I read the equivalent of 15 newspapers each day online (I suppose he is only reading the Bible).

[ImaGraftedBranch]

²¹For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ²²Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ²³and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
²⁴Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ²⁵They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
²⁶Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. ²⁷In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
²⁸Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. ²⁹They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, ³⁰slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; ³¹they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. ³²Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Billthedrill]

Odd you should mention it - I checked, and this is the American Psychiatric Association. It was the American Psychological Association that first came up with, (in sequential reports, no less), the claims that fathers were harmful to families and that sex with a man was beneficial to a boy.

But your point is a good one - headshrinker powwows seem to bring out the, er, exotic in these guys. Oh, well - cops grow to think of everyone as a criminal, and I suppose these folks come to think of everyone as nuts. Kinda makes things difficult for those of us who really are.

Dang it, I'm a "normophile." I wonder...is it a legitimate disability? Is there a government check in it for me?

[Right Wing Professor]

That slope sure is slippery. Looks like we're slidin' pretty fast.

[Slyfox]

"Any sexual interest," Moser concluded in his Archives commentary, "can be healthy and life-enhancing."

This guy is full of bull crap. Any sexual interest? Sexual sadism? Rape with a twinge of murder attached? Foot and diaper fetishes? Any sexual interest? This guy is knee-deep in bull crap.

[Remedy]

Briefs filed at the United States Supreme Court - John G. Lawrence, et al. v. Texas, No. 02-102, Alabama, South Carolina, and Utah (State Attorneys General) American Center for Law and JusticeJay Alan Sekulow, Counsel of Record American Family AssociationStephen M. Crampton, Counsel of Record Center for Arizona PolicyThis brief refutes the errors expressed in the opposing amicus submitted by the American Psychology Association. Len L. Munsil, Counsel of Record Center for Law and Justice InternationalPat Monaghan, Counsel of Record Center for the Original Intent of the ConstitutionMichael P. Farris, Counsel of Record Concerned Women for AmericaJanet M. LaRue, Counsel of Record Family Research Council & Focus on the FamilyRobert P. George, Counsel of Record Legislators, State of TexasKelly Shackelford, Counsel of Record Liberty CounselMathew D. Staver, Counsel of Record Pro Family Law CenterRichard Ackerman, Counsel of Record Texas Eagle Forum; Daughters of Liberty Republican Women of Houston, Texas; Spirit of Freedom Republican Women's ClubTeresa Stanton Collett, Counsel for Amici Curiae Texas Physicians Resource Council, Christian Medical and Dental Association, Catholic Medical Association Glen Lavy, Counsel of Record United Families International

[Right Wing Professor]

Yeah. In particular, you really, really didn't want to share his toothbrush.

[Remedy]

post #7

[ClearCase_guy]

gender-identity disorder should not be assumed to be abnormal, when, they say, it is usually an expression of healthy prehomosexuality.

So, are they moving away from the idea that homosexuals are "born that way"? If there is a prehomosexual condition then either it's a Choice or it's caused by something. If it's caused by something, they should cure it. If it's a choice, it's a bad one.

[Cicero]

The obvious natural purpose of sexuality is reproduction. Nature adds instinct and/or pleasure to encourage reproduction of the species. That follows if you are an atheistic Darwinist as well as a Christian or a Jew.

Because humans take such a long time to develop to maturity, nature encourages the development of families to raise and protect children. That also follows for Darwinists as well as Christians and Jews.

That's why homosexuality, bestiality, and other forms of aberrant behavior have traditionally been considered abnormal. Long experience as well as religious teaching has shown them to be destructive.

Some forms of sexual aberration are probably best tolerated, but should not be encouraged or "normalized" by proclamation. Among such modes of behavior are homosexuality and lesbianism. When practiced privately by consenting adults, they are still probably destructive to those who practice it, but cannot reasonably be prevented entirely.

Pederasty, rape, sadistic cruelty, and the like are not in the same class, because they harm innocent third parties. They must remain forbidden.

A question that arises is whether psychiatry itself has any social or scientific use at this juncture of history. Or should it, like phrenology, be allowed to disappear into the past as a pseudo-scientific craze rather than a true science?

[sharktrager]

This is a discussion forum.

Can't you discuss the topic?

[Remedy]

Will the Republicans enlarge their tent to accommodate this group which rightfully belongs to the democrats?

Will Horowitz defend the Log Cabin paraphilias?

[Diddle E. Squat]

Oh wow, was he one of the spring breakers in Mexico who after returning home developed his pictures and found that some of the hotel staff had used his camera to take pictures of themselves, include one with that guy's toothbrush stuck....

[Salman]

But during the last three decades, psychiatry has moved away from reliance on theories of causation...

A "science" that does not recognize the principle of cause and effect.

[Remedy]

POSTED ON F.R.:

1. SODOMY: Brief Of The States Of Alabama, South Carolina, And Utah (S.C.O.T.U.S.& Sodomy)

1. SODOMY : Texas Phys.Resource Council, Christian Med. & Dental Association, Catholic Med.Association
2. SODOMY : CENTER FOR THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION (LAWRENCE v. TEXAS SODOMY BRIEF)
3. SODOMY : Legislators,State of Texas, Lawrence v. Texas, No. 02-102

Discuss away

[AdA$tra]

Among the mental illnesses being debated in the symposium at the APA's annual convention were all the paraphilias--which include pedophilia, exhibitionism, fetishism, transvestism, voyeurism, and sadomasochism.

Oh good. I am finally normal.

[Right Wing Professor]

I'm not going to describe what Kinsey did with a toothbrush. I don't even like to think very much about what Kinsey did with a toothbrush. Read his biography, but not after a full meal. Sick does not begin to describe it.

[ffusco]

Another erudite post. I only have issue with the first line. The obvious natural purpose of "sex" is reproduction.The purpose of sexuality is enjoyment and socialization. Similarly eating is the primary way to prevent starvation, food, cooking and the enjoyment of the same are just more ritual socialization.

[trebb]

"Should These Conditions Be Normalized?" : American Psychiatric Association Symposium Debates Whether Pedophilia, Gender-Identity Disorder, Sexual Sadism Should Remain Mental Illnesses

Sure, normalize them - we can call it a case of the aberrations "curing" the Psychiatric industry's inability to cure the aberrations...

[Remedy]

A question that arises is whether psychiatry itself has any social or scientific use at this juncture of history.

Hitler had Goebbels and the Sodomites have the A.P.A.

[Billthedrill]

Uh, yeah. I wish you hadn't reminded me...

[sharktrager]

I'll take that as a no

[Remedy]

If you can't understand the material, just use common sense.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

I see the APA morons are still at it. First they said adult/child sex was OK and wasn't harmful (which made me spit nails). Now they're saying that all the other pathologies should be normalized, too.

What will be on next year's agenda for normalization? Necrophilia? Bestiality? Auto-erotic asphyxiation?

[almcbean]

It appears that what Santorum was accused of saying but didn't is also coming true.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Remedy]

It appears that what Santorum was accused of saying but didn't is also coming true.

Once you condition society to accept homosexuality, it becomes increasingly difficult to draw lines.

Judaism's Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected HomosexualityWhen Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The Torah's prohibition of non-marital sex quite simply made the creation of Western civilization possible. Societies that did not place boundaries around sexuality were stymied in their development. The subsequent dominance of the Western world can largely be attributed to the sexual revolution initiated by Judaism and later carried forward by Christianity. The acceptance of homosexuality as the equal of heterosexual marital love signifies the decline of Western civilization as surely as the rejection of homosexuality and other nonmarital sex made the creation of this civilization possible.

[eastsider]

People with "sexually unusual" interests, Moser and Kleinplatz note, may in fact be quite happy and well-adjusted. But the APA's labeling of their conditions as "pathological" fuels social discrimination against them, Moser and Kleinplatz warn, which can lead to distress and discrimination that is psychologically damaging.

The stress that the sexually disordered feel is the objective difference between their perverted desires and reality. At the point when the sexually disordered cease to feel that stress, they're well on their way to becoming sociopaths (and/or psychiatrists : )

Besides, Moser and Kleinplatz add, psychiatry has no baseline, theoretical model of what, in fact, constitutes normal and healthy sexuality ...

Earth to Moser and Kleinplatz: Here's your baseline:

MAN WOMAN BIRTH DEATH INFINITY

[litany_of_lies]

Hey, you're real good when you actual coherent thoughts. Keep it up.

[omega4412]

Your views make perfect sense. Too logical for the shrinks, though.

Should psychiatry go the way of phrenology? I think that in criminal trials the expert testimony of psychiatrists should be given no more weight than the expert testimony of astrologers. Or phrenologists.

[litany_of_lies]

Insert "post" in #41-Oops. Lack of coherence alert.

[Remedy]

And the Wesleyan Quadrilateral

1. The Bible
2. Reason
3. Tradition
4. Experience

[verity]

Few things are "normal" in San Francisco.

[tracer]

The meeting is in San Francisco. The symbolism of flies swarming to a bucket of $#!t is truly breathtaking.....

[sharktrager]

I can understand itjust fine.

You, however, seem unable to communicate your views. Posting links is simply a way of saying you can't express yourself in this case.

[luvtheconstitution]

That they could even ask that opening question speaks volumes. Does anyone else find it frightening that these perverts are setting standards that will affect law?

[irish guard]

>>>>>>Few things are "normal" in San Francisco.<<<<<<

Ah if it were just limited to SF.....I have three sons, all of whom are non gay. It amazes me that according to the media, Hollywood and our public schools, my sons seem to be in the minority. Is everyone a homo, lesbian, transexual or transgender these days?

[Remedy]

You have made 3 posts on this thread and failed to comment on the topic. Will you make a fourth?