Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Philadelphia Council Flouts Scouts' Antigay Stance
Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | May 29,2003 | By Linda K. Harris and Miriam Hill

Posted on 05/29/2003 6:26:27 AM PDT by South Hawthorne

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-68 last
To: Owl_Eagle
"We disagree with the national stance, and we're not comfortable with the stated national policy," said David H. Lipson Jr., board chairman of the Cradle of Liberty Council. "That's why we're working on a solution that works for everyone."
Just an FYI to Delaware Valley Freepers, Mr. Lipson is the Publisher of Philadelphia Magazine.
My initial thought was that scout parents should hold Lipson responsible when a troop leader, young boy "incident" occurs.
Thanks Owl for the word about his interest Philadelphia Magazine.  :-)

51 posted on 05/30/2003 5:18:09 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: SandRat
Yes I'm sure. I'm involved as an adult in one of Districts in this area's Council.

Interesting. I was unaware of that. Thanks.

All that I've said is true. The question is will it be done?

Well, as I've said before, I'm thinking they'll examine the issue with the Board itself for a couple of iterations, and then if the whole board is in defiance they'll just pull the Council's charter and either look for a new group of citizens to constitute a new Council or merge it into another. When the charter laspses, so would the registrations of the Board members.

52 posted on 05/30/2003 6:02:06 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: Houmatt
Anybody by chance have some contact info so we could follow Congressman Billybob's suggestion of Freeping the National Boy Scouts and asking them to revoke these sickos' charter?

For just this reason, National does not make any e-mail addresses public. The noise to signal ratio would be astronomically high.

53 posted on 05/30/2003 6:05:06 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Houmatt
Only you will never know about it, because chances are the pro-homosexual media won't report it.

Actually, if you do a News search in Google you'll find that sexual assaults by Scouters on youth get prominent play in the media.

54 posted on 05/30/2003 6:08:28 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: GirlShortstop
My initial thought was that scout parents should hold Lipson responsible when a troop leader, young boy "incident" occurs.

Legally, the liability (after the perpetrator, of course) lies with the sponsoring organization that signed up the leader and didn't either check him or her out or didn't adequately supervise the leader.

This is the reason why the PTA has advised it's local chapters not to sponsor Scout units. The National PTA asked National Council to accept that liability and to indemnify the National PTA, and National Council refused.

55 posted on 05/30/2003 6:11:07 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: Houmatt; Sunshine Sister
Some innocent little boy who trusts adults will be assaulted and everyone will act surprised that it happened.

The interesting thing is that National itself explicitly states that this is not what they are concerned about, and is not why they ban homosexuals. They ban homosexuals because they (read, the majority of their sponsors) believe that homosexuality demonstrates an immoral character, not that homosexuals pose an especial or increased risk for being pedophiles. See here:

FICTION

The Boy Scouts of America has chosen to exclude avowed homosexuals from the ranks of its members and leaders because of a fear of pedophilia.

FACT

The BSA does not equate homosexuality and pedophilia, but neither avowed homosexuals nor pedophiles are appropriate role models for Scouting youth.

56 posted on 05/30/2003 6:21:41 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: GirlShortstop
Hm. Let me slightly edit my reply:

This is the stated reason why the PTA ....
57 posted on 05/30/2003 6:23:50 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: RonF
Wow! Thanks for your overview of the Scouts,very informative.
58 posted on 05/30/2003 2:40:31 PM PDT by Mears (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Mears
The BSA has a fairly convoluted structure. One reason why this issue is so contentious is because their structure is highly decentralized. There are few policies, outside of safety-related ones and things like rank requirements, that don't allow at least some local interpretation. But this one doesn't.

"Morally straight" is not so black/white an issue as many would like to think. For example, most conservatives view a physician that performs abortions as a serial killer. However, should a sponsoring organization register one as a Scoutmaster or Den Leader, neither the local Council nor National Council would flag them as unacceptable. Yet which do you think most conservatives would view as more immoral?

59 posted on 05/30/2003 3:24:54 PM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: RonF
"Morally straight" is a concept that was common knowledge at the time of Scouting's conception in this country. That is to say, the Judeo-Christian underpinnings of the culture were assumed.

Today, this is no longer the case and the onus of justification seems to be on those who would defend such 'antiquated' notions.

As you and I have argued in the past, the traditional ethics of Scouting are immutable and B.P. himself wouldn't hesitate to make the distinction. Castigations of B.P. by homosexuals won't cut it here, Ron.

The sodomites. clearly, have vested interests in making inroads here. People have common sense. Nobody wants their kid being tucked in at night by a pederast. I know because I've been a Scoutmaster that looks in on his troops at night, and I'm a father that would leave no stone unturned in seeking justice against somebody that harms my child if justice failed.
60 posted on 05/30/2003 10:21:52 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: KCmark
I find it interesting that I've heard of more child abuse in the church than in the boy scouts.

There has definately been assaults on the boy scouts by gay leaders. In fact, there was a case that went to court last year. The media (who have a pro-gay agenda) hide all the homosexual abuse...and legal cases...they just feature the Sam Shephard cases where homosexuals are VICTIMS, never the perpetrators.

61 posted on 05/30/2003 10:46:17 PM PDT by savagesusie (Ann Coulter rules!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: WorkingClassFilth
Oh, don't get me wrong. The BSA Federal Charter says that "The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." And there's little question in my mind that on June 15th, 1916, "morally straight" was generally presumed to exclude homosexuality.

What I'm saying is that when most people read the BSA Oath and see the phrase "morally straight", they don't consider it in the context of when it was written. They think of it in the context of contemporary culture. And to many people in America today, "morally straight" doesn't automatically exclude homosexuals. Hence the controversy.

So a lot of people would like the BSA should change to accomodate this. After all, the BSA used to have segregated Troops, and that changed. It used to exclude women from leadership positions. That changed. And it's arguable in both cases that the BSA wouldn't have survived unless those changes had taken place.

Accepting homosexuals as being eligible for leadership positions (I'll leave accepting homosexual youth for a different discussion) would be different, though. Despite assertions to the contrary, homosexuality is different than race or gender; the latter two are clearly and wholly biological in origin, and there is no demonstration that the differences among the races or genders makes any difference in their abilities or fitness. Whereas homosexuality is generally perceived to be at least partly behavioral choice, and there are many who believe that choice to be a moral question.

Accepting integrated leadership has little controversy, at least now. The various sponsors accepted it; those who didn't weren't missed. Accepting women as leaders is still somewhat controversial, but most sponsors have accepted it. Some haven't; notably the Mormon Church, who enroll 1/8 of all BSA members. But while they disapprove of enrolling female leaders, as it violates the tenets of their religion, they accept the presence of female leaders in other units. Apparently they can handle the messages that these other units send to their Scouts.

But the line has been drawn at accepting homosexuals. There are sponsors that would accept this. But at least one of the sponsors that can't, namely the LDS, says that they can't handle the message that this sends; that even though they themselves wouldn't accept homosexuals as leaders, they can't allow their youth to see that any Scouts can accept homosexuals as leaders. They say that if this happens, they'll quit the BSA. And while no one else has said this for the public record, I suspect that they're not alone. This kills off the possibililty of adopting "local option", which would be where some units would be free to accept people of a certain makeup or behavior (like women, or abortion providers) that other units exclude. Unless the BSA was willing to see those groups leave the BSA, as they were willing to see groups that wouldn't accept including blacks and women leave the BSA.

62 posted on 05/31/2003 11:10:54 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: WorkingClassFilth
Nobody wants their kid being tucked in at night by a pederast.

I haven't seen anyone propose this. And even the BSA doesn't equate homosexuality with pederasty (see my earlier reference to the BSA web site). So what's your point?

63 posted on 05/31/2003 11:14:06 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: savagesusie
Read again.

I find it interesting that I've heard of more child abuse in the church than in the boy scouts.

I could qualify that with 'a lot' more. I was responding to the poster who said the moral majority and such is our salvation against pedos. I don't think they are.
64 posted on 05/31/2003 11:57:45 AM PDT by KCmark (I am NOT a partisan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: RonF
Sodomites want access to BSA. Sodomites are abnormally disparate victims of molestation. Sexual abuse victims repeat their abuse. Homosexuals seek victims.

The pathology is there if you wish to see it. Common sense does. Only in a court of law would the relationship of sodomy and child abuse be questioned.

As I said before: "Nobody wants their kid being tucked in at night by a pederast."
65 posted on 05/31/2003 10:48:57 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: WorkingClassFilth
Only in a court of law would the relationship of sodomy and child abuse be questioned.

Actually, the relationship is questioned in one other place I know of for sure. From the BSA's web site

FICTION

The Boy Scouts of America has chosen to exclude avowed homosexuals from the ranks of its members and leaders because of a fear of pedophilia.

FACT

The BSA does not equate homosexuality and pedophilia, but neither avowed homosexuals nor pedophiles are appropriate role models for Scouting youth.

So it seems the BSA belongs on your list of fools. The BSA excludes homosexuals from membership on the basis of the moral example they present, not any danger of child abuse.

The BSA prevents child abuse not by excluding homosexuals but by instituting and using its Youth Protection policies. These work equally well against abuse by either homosexual or heterosexual child abusers. If you do a Google search on Scouting and child abuse, you'll see that almost all cases involve men that are married and have children and whose registration status was unaffected by the BSA's prohibition against avowed homosexuals.

66 posted on 06/01/2003 8:26:20 PM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: RonF
"Actually, if you do a News search in Google you'll find that sexual assaults by Scouters on youth get prominent play in the media."

Local stories in local media perhaps but little or no national "big media" coverage.
There is a HUGE difference.


67 posted on 06/01/2003 8:49:43 PM PDT by wolficatZ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: wolficatZ
Unless a celebrity is involved, sexual assault of any kind is rarely a national story. So for the national media not to publicize a particular kind of sexual assault wouldn't be media bias.
68 posted on 06/02/2003 5:43:59 AM PDT by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-68 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson