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We don’t need no steenking 2nd Amendment
Backwoods Home Magazine ^ | John Silveira

Posted on 06/20/2003 12:58:48 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo

I usually get up to the magazine from southern California in plenty of time for the bimonthly deadline. Not this issue. I was late and way behind. But getting up here late doesn’t lessen my workload; it just stretches out the number of hours I have to work each day. There’s less time to relax, visit, or spend with friends. That said, three of us, Dave Duffy, O.E. MacDougal, and I went shooting anyway and depreciated a huge amount of ammunition on a hillside up behind Duffy’s house. Duffy, of course, is the fellow who publishes this magazine.

Mac is Dave’s poker-playing friend from the old days.

After a hard day of knocking down cans and collecting brass, we got back to the office and discovered that Dave’s old college buddy, Bill, had stopped by. Dave and Bill began talking about old times, but the phone rang and took Dave out of the conversation.

I, in the meantime, had disassembled my rifle and there were pieces in my lap and some on my desk. Mac was off in the corner reading a copy of the last issue of BHM.

“What are you doing with that?” Bill asked.

I looked up. He was talking to me.

I looked down in my lap at the gun parts I had there. “I’m cleaning it,” I said.

“What do you need it for?” he asked.

“I don’t usually clean them but...”

“No, not why do you need to clean it, why do you need a gun?”

“Why do I need it?”

“Yes.”

“I want it,” I said.

“But why do you need one?” he persisted.

“Need one?” I asked again, not understanding his question. “I don’t follow you.”

“How many guns do you have?”

“You mean ‘own’ or how many did I bring up with me?”

My question seemed to put him off.

“How many do you own?” he asked in a voice that was tinged with exasperation. “How many guns do you have here, there, and everywhere?”

I thought a minute. “About a dozen.”

He screwed up his face. “What do you need 12 guns for? If you need a gun, one should be enough.”

“Enough for what?”

“What do you need a gun for?”

The meaning of the 2nd Amendment

He was back to that. “I don’t know where this is going. I don’t even understand your question,” I said. “I don’t have to need a gun to own one any more than I need a CD player or a couch to own one of those. The 2nd Amendment says I can have them. It doesn’t say I have to show a need and it doesn’t limit the number I can own.”

Bill shook his head. “So, you’re one of those.”

Dave finished his call and turned to us as he hung up and said, “Bill, what do you mean by needing a gun?”

“The 2nd Amendment isn’t about you guys owning guns,” Bill said. “It’s about the state having guns. It says you’re only allowed guns if you’re part of the militia and I don’t see any of you guys with uniforms. The 2nd Amendment is about the National Guard.”

“I don’t think that’s what it means,” Dave said.

“It says it right in the amendment. It’s for the militia. You can even ask Mac,” he said and pumped his thumb back to the corner where Mac was quietly reading. “I’ll bet even he agrees with me.”

I think Bill was baiting Mac. He and Mac had had a lively discussion about our rights the last time Bill was here about two years ago (Issue No. 44 March/April 1997). But Mac didn’t look up. He just kept reading.

Dave got out of his seat and pulled down the almanac from the bookcase and flipped through the pages.

Then he began to read, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

“See,” Bill said. “It’s about having a well regulated militia. Militia—that’s military. It’s not about you.”

“Well, a whole bunch of people think it’s about individual gun ownership,” Dave said.

“But it’s not. Read the amendment again. It’s about the militia. It’s only you gun nuts who think it’s about you.”

I shrugged. The wording of the 2nd Amendment has always bothered me.

But Dave looked off into the corner to where Mac was still reading. “What do you think?” he asked.

Mac just looked at us and smiled, then went back to his magazine.

“See,” Bill said. “Even he knows it’s about the National Guard, not you guys.”

“The National Guard didn’t exist when the 2nd Amendment was written. It came into existence over a century later,” Mac said without looking up and he continued to read.

“What?” Dave asked.

“I said the 2nd Amendment isn’t about the National Guard. The Bill of Rights was adopted in 1791. The act that created the National Guard wasn’t enacted until 1903.”

“Well, you know what I mean,” Bill said. “It’s to allow the states to have state police and things like that.”

Mac continued to read.

“Is that true?” I asked.

Mac looked up when he realized I was talking to him.

“You mean was it for the state police and such?” he asked me.

“Yes,” I replied.

“No.”

Bill smiled. “Mac, it says right there in black and white—Dave just read it to us—that it’s to ensure we have a well regulated militia.”

I looked expectantly to Mac who seemed to be getting impatient because he really was trying to read. “Could you give us a little input into this?” I asked him.

“I can tell you that when the Founding Fathers used the word militia, it meant something different to them than what it means to us now,” and he continued reading.

“Is that all you’ve got to say?” I asked.

He looked at me, then back at his magazine. He knew we weren’t going to let him stay out of this and he reluctantly closed it.

What is the militia?

Now that I had him I asked, “What’s this about how the guys who founded this country used the word militia?”

“You’ve got to understand what the militia is,” he said. “In May of 1792, five months after the adoption of the 2nd Amendment, the Militia Act was passed. That act distinguished between the enrolled militia and the organized militia. Before the passing of that act, there was only the enrolled militia, which was the body of all able-bodied men between the ages of 17 and 44, inclusively, and it is that militia to which the 2nd Amendment refers. It couldn’t refer to the organized militia because it didn’t exist yet. The 2nd Amendment was to ensure that this body of citizens is armed and that’s why the Founding Fathers thought to place it in the Bill of Rights. Legally, both militias still exist.”

“Are you saying I’m in some militia?” Bill asked derisively.

“By law, you were. I would guess that, by now, you’re over that age.”

“So, you’re also saying only people between 17 and 44 are allowed guns, right?”

“No,” Mac replied. “That’s just the ages of the body of men constituting the militia. The amendment says the people can both keep and bear arms. It’s usually been construed to mean all the people.”

“I don’t believe you.”

Mac shrugged, reopened his magazine and resumed reading.

“What don’t you believe?” I asked.

“Anything. First, I don’t believe that I’m part of any militia or ever was. Second, I don’t believe that the 2nd Amendment refers to the people at large and not the army or some other state or federal organization.”

“I still don’t get this thing about the organized and the enrolled militia?” Dave said.

Mac put the magazine down again. He shook his head and muttered something about fishing in Alaska from now on. He got up out of his chair and walked out the door. Through the window we could see him in the parking lot fishing around in the trunk of his car until he finally pulled something out. It was a tattered black briefcase. He carried it back into the office and put it on the desk next to his magazine. He opened the briefcase and took out a sheaf of papers and fanned through them.

“I was looking up some stuff on the 2nd Amendment for a lawyer friend I play poker with down south,” he said, meaning southern California, “and I still have some of the papers.”

He stopped fanning them.

“Here are copies of the Militia Act,” he said and held them out to Bill. “They explain what the militia meant to the Founding Fathers. They also show that the 2nd Amendment came before Federal law created the organized militia and provide evidence that what they referred to as the enrolled militia—the body of citizens—were allowed to arm themselves.”

Bill waved them away. “All that happened 200 years ago,” Bill said. “Militia means something else today. It means the military.”

“No, the law hasn’t changed,” Mac said. “But even if we decide the word means something new to us, you can’t use the new definition to change the intent of the Amendment.”

“That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. But times have changed and we need new interpretations of the words and of the Constitution.”

“It’s not just my opinion,” Mac said. “The Supreme Court has ruled that the words in the Constitution mean what the Founding Fathers said they meant, and we can’t go changing or amending the Constitution by giving new meanings or new shades of meaning to the words. And, if you think about it, it makes sense; otherwise, our rights really mean nothing. Congress or any other governing body can deny you the right to free speech, freedom of religion, a trial by jury, or whatever else it wanted just by claiming the words now have a new meaning. An oppressive government could change the Constitution without ever having to go through the bothersome ritual of submitting it to us, the people, for our approval. And, in the end, the Constitution and, in particular, the Bill of Rights are there for our protection, not for the benefit of the government or those who run it.”

“Well, I don’t buy into these definitions you have of militia and such,” Bill said. “I don’t believe the 2nd Amendment gives John or anyone else the right to privately own guns. I think your interpretation is just a well-presented opinion and that the 2nd Amendment really refers to the powers given to the states.”

Why we don’t need the 2nd Amendment

Mac shrugged. “That’s okay. Even if you’re right and the 2nd Amendment refers only to the National Guard, the state police, or some other uniformed military or police organization we’d still have the right to keep and bear arms. We don’t need the 2nd Amendment.”

“What?” Bill yipped. “If the 2nd Amendment is about the states, and not the individual, you don’t have the right to own guns.”

“Yes we do,” Mac said.

“Wait a minute,” Dave said, “How do you figure we’d still have the right to have guns? Without the 2nd Amendment we’re lost.”

Bill was laughing, “Yeah, how do you come up with that?”

“Because the Founding Fathers believed we had that right. They spoke about it and wrote about it. And that’s enough.”

Bill laughed harder. “That’ll look good in court: ‘I can carry a gun because some guy who’s been dead for 200 years said I can. Here, let me show you the note he gave me. It’s in the form of a permission slip. Can I get a hall pass, too?’”

Dave laughed at what Bill said, but Mac didn’t seem in the least perturbed.

“I think Dave and Bill are right,” I said. “The whole question of gun rights hinges on what the 2nd Amendment means. If it means the right to bear arms belongs to the states, then it means you and I don’t have any right to individual gun ownership.”

“Well, let’s start with this,” Mac said. “Can you find anything in the 2nd Amendment, or any other part of the Constitution, that says the individual can’t have arms?”

“What’s that got to do with it?” Bill asked.

“That’s not an answer. Just keep in mind my question is not whether you think the Constitution allows individuals to carry guns but whether or not there’s anything in it that says they can’t?

“Anyone can answer it, but the question is really directed at Bill.”

There was a long pause while we all thought about that. I don’t know where Mac was taking this, but it smelled suspiciously like a trap and I’m sure Bill felt that way, too.

Mac waited patiently.

“I don’t think so,” Dave finally said.

I agreed, too, but Bill still didn’t say anything.

Natural Rights

“And do you also understand that the Bill of Rights is not the source of our rights. It’s not even a complete list of our rights.”

“What are you talking about?” I asked.

“Mac’s losing it,” Bill said and threw his arms up.

“I’m asking you if you understand that we do not get our rights from the Bill of Rights.”

“Of course we do,” Bill said. “That’s why they wrote the Bill of Rights.”

“I’ve got to agree with Bill,” I said.

Dave said nothing. He seemed to be thinking.

“I’m saying this because the Founding Fathers did not believe we got our rights from the Bill of Rights. Nor did they believe they came about as a result of being American, Christian, of European decent, or white. They believed everyone had these rights even if they lived in Europe, China, or the moon. They called them Natural Rights. Where these rights were not allowed, they believed they still existed but were denied.”

“You should be writing fiction,” Bill said.

“Well, it’s a question as to whether or not our rights exist apart from government,” Mac said. “Let me ask you this,” he said to Bill. “In a country where children have no civil rights, do they still have a right not to be molested? Do women in countries where they have a second-citizen status have the right not to be abused by their husbands, even if the government won’t protect them?”

Bill didn’t answer.

“Then is it too much of a stretch for you to understand that the Founding Fathers believed everyone has the right to free speech, freedom of religion, the right to fair trials...?” His voice trailed off.

Bill still wouldn’t answer.

“In other words,” Dave said, “it’s a question as to whether the rights of the citizens in China are at the pleasure of the government or if they have them but are being denied, or if the Jews had basic human rights in Germany even if Hitler didn’t let them exercise them?”

“Yes. All I want to know is if that’s hard for you to see.” He looked at Bill who was still silent.

“Then I see what you’re saying,” Dave said, “But I’m not sure how it relates to the 2nd Amendment.”

Bill still said nothing—but neither did I.

“Take it a step further. If the government passed a law tomorrow that said we didn’t have the right to free speech, or the right to free worship, or freedom of the press, would those rights no longer exist, or would they be simply denied? If the Constitution is amended depriving us of our rights, do those rights cease to exist?”

“What’s the answer?” Dave asked Mac.

“The answer, according to the guys who set up this country, is yes, we would still have those rights. We’re just being denied them. Because of that, it’s the way we have to look at the Constitution.”

Bill rubbed his nose.

Dave said, “Okay, I never thought of it that way, but I’ll buy into it for a moment.”

“It may be,” Mac said, “that in reality, rights are a figment of our imagination. But the Founding Fathers believed they existed and that’s how this country was set up. Rights are something that come with being human. The Founders never believed we got them from the government. If and when the United States goes away, the rights will still be there.”

Why a Bill of Rights?

“Then why have a Bill of Rights?” Bill asked. The question was posed as a challenge.

“You’re not the first person to ask that. Men like Alexander Hamilton asked it. He and many others thought having a Bill of rights was dangerous.”

“Dangerous,” Bill laughed. “How could it be dangerous?”

“They were afraid that the existence of a Bill of Rights as a part of our Constitution implied that the government not only had the right to change them, but that any rights not listed there were fair game for the government to deny. And, as a matter of fact, that’s exactly what has happened. The government seems to have set itself up to be an interpreter of our rights; it acts as if it is also the source of our rights, and whatever rights weren’t mentioned in the Bill of Rights, the government has seen fit to declare exist only at its discretion.”

“Then how do we know what our rights are in court?” Bill asked.

“Have you ever read the Bill of Rights?” Mac asked. I think he was tired; there was no humor in his voice.

“Specifically, have you ever read the 9th and 10th Amendments?”

Bill smiled and shook his head. “I never thought it was important to memorize them.”

“It’s important to understand what they say and know why they are written the way they are because they tie in with how the Founding Fathers viewed our rights and how they expected us to view them.

“They were put there to quell the fears of men like Hamilton who were afraid that any rights not mentioned in the Bill of Rights would be usurped by the government. The 9th says:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

“This means that any rights not mentioned in the Bill of Rights are not to be denied to the people.

“The 10th says:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

“So any powers not specifically given to the Federal government are not powers it can usurp.

“So it’s enough to show the Founding Fathers thought we had a right for it to fall under the protection of the 9th or 10th Amendment. This means that the Founders didn’t even have to specify we have the right to free speech, religion, jury trials, or anything else. To understand what they felt our rights were, all you had to do was show what they said our rights are. Any rights in the first eight Amendments are just redundant with what the Founding Fathers considered Natural Rights.

Bill rolled his eyes.

“Then why do we have a Bill of Rights?” I asked.

“Because even though Hamilton and others feared having one, most of the Founding Fathers were sure that without one the government would eventually take all of our rights.”

“Just getting off the gun issue for the moment,” Dave quickly asked, “are there actually rights not mentioned in the Constitution that you’d say we’ve been denied?”

“Sure. The Founding Fathers felt we had a right to unrestricted travel. So, now we have driver’s licenses, automobile registrations, and passports. They also felt we had property rights, so Civil Forfeiture or Civil Seizure laws, now exercised by the Feds and the states, are actually illegal under both the 9th and 10th Amendment.

"And,” he continued, “if the Congress or even the Supreme Court decides the 2nd Amendment only refers to formal military organizations, we still have the right to keep and bear arms, because the Founding Fathers considered it a natural right. And if you don’t believe it, read what the Founding Fathers said in their papers, their letters, and their debates in both Congress and the state legislatures.”

He pulled more papers from his briefcase and started going through them.

“You know,” he said, “weapons have always been important. In Greece, Rome, and even under Anglo-Saxon law, when slaves were freed, part of the ceremony included placing a weapon in the man’s hand. It was symbolic of the man’s new rank.”

What the Founders said

He paused as he looked through the papers. “Here’s one, and I quote:

Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense. “That was said by John Adams in A Defense Of The Constitution.

“Here’s another one:

The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. “That was said by Samuel Adams, John Adams’ second or third cousin, during Massachusetts’ U.S. Constitution ratification convention in 1788.”

“This is all bull,” Bill said.

Mac looked up, then he started to put the papers back in the briefcase.

“No, I want to hear more of this,” Dave said. “What else have you got there?” Dave asked, and Mac began going through the papers again.

“If you really want to hear what they had to say, here are a few by Jefferson:

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government. “And here’s another by him:

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. “He wrote this as part of the proposed Virginia Constitution, in 1776. Personal protection

“And here’s one more. It’s Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria—a Milanese criminologist whom he admired who was also his contemporary—in On Crimes and Punishment:

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. “I think it’s pretty clear that Jefferson felt we had the right to keep and bear arms for both personal protection and as a safeguard against tyranny.”

Bill went and poured himself some coffee and acted, for all the world, as if he wasn’t listening anymore.

Mac shuffled through a few more papers. “Here’s one by Thomas Paine that comes from his Thoughts On Defensive War written in 1775:

Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them. “And here’s one from Georgy Boy:

Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference—they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. “Who’s Georgy Boy?” I asked.

“George Washington. That was from a speech he made to Congress on...” He looked at the paper again. “...January 7, 1790.

“But that’s not the only quote from him. In response to a proposal for gun registration he said:

Absolutely not. If the people are armed and the federalists do not know where the arms are, there can never be an oppressive government. “I think that’s pretty clear.” He lowered the pages and looked at Dave. “More?”

“Do you have more?”

He went through more of his papers. “Here’s one of my favorites:

To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them. “That was by George Mason when the Constitution was being debated.”

“And who, may I ask, was George Mason?” Bill asked. “It sounds like you’re bringing in the second string now.”

“He’s the most underrated and unsung of all the Founding Fathers. Jefferson drew on him when composing the Declaration of Independence; his doctrine of inalienable rights was not only the basis for the Virginia Bill of Rights in 1776, but other states used them as the models for their own Bill of Rights, and James Madison drew upon them freely while composing the Bill of Rights for the United States.

“Even though a Southerner, Mason recognized the evils of slavery and the fact that slaves were entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity. He also feared the Constitution because it didn’t do a better job of limiting the powers of the Federal government. He believed local government should be strong and the Federal government kept weak. He firmly believed in the power, the rights, and the integrity of the individual.”

“Never heard of him,” Bill said.

“I’m not surprised. But you’re not alone because most people haven’t.”

“Why’s that?” Dave asked.

“He suffered bad health and had all kinds of family problems, so he never attained any office outside of Virginia—other than his membership to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. But he was the most vocal of the Founders on individual rights, and the other Founding Fathers recognized him as a force to be reckoned with. Without him, I can guarantee you that the United States would not be as free as it is now.

“You guys should do an article on him,” he said to Dave.

Dave quickly wrote something on his notepad, then glanced at me.

Defense against tyranny

Mac continued to go through his papers. “Here’s a quote by Elbridge Gerry, a representative to Congress from Massachusetts during the debates over the Bill of Rights. He’s also the man for whom gerrymandering is named because, as governor of Massachusetts, he tried to rig districts to favor his party. In this quote he was specifically referring to what we now call the 2nd Amendment:

What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty...Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins. “That should also give you insight as to how the Founders defined the militia and why they thought it was important.”

“Okay, I’ve heard enough,” Bill said.

“Me too,” Dave added.

“There’s one more,” Mac said. “It’s kind of a long one, but it’s by James Madison, the guy who wrote the Constitution and actually put together the Bill of Rights. ”

“Okay, go ahead,” Dave said.

The highest number to which a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the souls, or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This portion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Besides the advantage of being armed, it forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. The governments of Europe are afraid to trust the people with arms. If they did, the people would surely shake off the yoke of tyranny, as America did. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. “I kind of like that one,” Dave said.

“So do I,” Mac said.

“I’ve got more, but I think that’s enough. But I think you can see how the Founding Fathers felt about the right of individuals to have weapons. In fact, this whole debate over the right to arms is a recent one. In the last century, Americans would have been as amazed to find their right to have weapons a subject of debate as they would to have found their right to free speech or religion debated. There was no question to them, or to the Founders, that the right to keep and bear arms was one of the most fundamental—perhaps the most fundamental—of all civil rights.”

“Are any of the Founders on record saying they don’t believe individuals should have guns?” Dave asked.

“None I know of—and I’ve actually looked for some.

“Do you know of any, Bill?” he asked.

Bill didn’t reply. Again, I thought he was acting as if he wasn’t listening.

The phone rang again and someone called across the office to tell Dave it was an advertiser, so he took the call.

Mac put his papers back into the briefcase and picked up his magazine and started to look for his place. Bill had even lost interest in the conversation. And it was time for me to get back to work. As I said, I was way behind. I took a last look at the gun parts to ensure they were clean, and I began to reassemble the rifle.

But I turned back to Mac for a moment and asked, “The lawyer friend you found this information for...were you giving him legal advice, doing research for him, or what?”

“I was winning a bet,” he said.

“What were the stakes?”

“A six-pack of beer.”

“That seems like a paltry sum to have gone through all this research for.”

“We’re going to drink it in Florida,” he said.

“Oh,” I replied and continued to reassemble the gun.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: banglist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Long, but good. ...Especially some of the quotes (in the 2nd half of the piece) by the Founding Fathers illustrating how strongly they believed that firearms ownership was a Natural, God-Given Right.
1 posted on 06/20/2003 12:58:49 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: *bang_list
BANG!
2 posted on 06/20/2003 12:59:50 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo
Great article, Mr. Mojo. This reminds me that my subscription to BWH has lapsed.
3 posted on 06/20/2003 1:17:44 AM PDT by whipitgood (It's a beautiful world we live in)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Bookmarked for later, thanks. Blackbird.
4 posted on 06/20/2003 1:24:03 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: Mr. Mojo
That guy Bill sounds familar. I think I've run into him many times. Libs have two reactions, they either crawl into a catatonic shell like Bill where they can't hear or see anything or lash out with a stream of hateful profanity.
5 posted on 06/20/2003 1:38:40 AM PDT by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: Mr. Mojo; Prof Engineer
bump

Thanks Mr. Mojo.
6 posted on 06/20/2003 4:26:11 AM PDT by msdrby (I do believe the cheese slid off his cracker! - The Green Mile)
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To: phasma proeliator
PING.
7 posted on 06/20/2003 5:39:18 AM PDT by jdogbearhunter
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To: Mr. Mojo; Joe Brower
BUMP
8 posted on 06/20/2003 5:44:39 AM PDT by Andonius_99
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To: Andonius_99
For later.

L

9 posted on 06/20/2003 5:51:38 AM PDT by Lurker (A 'moderate' Arab is one who carries a grudge for less than 8 generations.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
“The 2nd Amendment isn’t about you guys owning guns,” Bill said. “It’s about the state having guns. It says you’re only allowed guns if you’re part of the militia and I don’t see any of you guys with uniforms. The 2nd Amendment is about the National Guard.”

Behold the Idiocy of the Gun-Grabbing Chimp.

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:54:02 -0600 (MDT)
From: Cancer Omega <comega@attrition.org>
To: "Aphrazel ." <aphrazel@onebox.com>
Cc: staff@attrition.org
Subject: Re: still waiting

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Aphrazel . wrote: 

> Also, before you go spouting off in your articles remember that the
> second ammendment only applies to those in state-recognized militias. 
> The average civilian doesn't have a constitutional right to carry a gun.

Let me see if I understand you here:

1.	"the people" in the First Amendment means *the people*;
2.	"the people" in the Fourth Amendment means *the people*;
3.	"the people" in the Ninth Amendment means, *the people*;
4.	...but "the people" in the Second Amendment (ratified in 1787)
	means the National Guard (which was created by an Act of Congress
	in *1917*).

God, you are one stupid f%$^ing chimp.

.c

http://www.attrition.org/technical/firearms/chimp.html

10 posted on 06/20/2003 5:52:32 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Nice artlicle, makes some good points.

One of the telling ones, IMO, is that America really is getting to a point where gun ownership, and the pleasure of it, is often looked on today as something a little odd, even unhealthy.

And the point that the Bill of Rights do not list all of our rights is important.

Cool magazine, BTW, hadn't heard of it before.
11 posted on 06/20/2003 5:58:00 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Excellent article.

However, the quote from Washington about 'liberty teeth' is bogus. The quote from Adams is severely mangled in a way that changes its meaning substantially.

Check here for more: Bogus Quotes Attributed to the Founders

12 posted on 06/20/2003 5:58:08 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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To: spodefly
http://www.attrition.org/technical/firearms/index.html
13 posted on 06/20/2003 5:58:25 AM PDT by msdrby (I do believe the cheese slid off his cracker! - The Green Mile)
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To: Mr. Mojo
That's exactly why I love that magazine!
14 posted on 06/20/2003 6:01:50 AM PDT by hardhead ("Curly, don't say it's a fine morning or I'll shoot you!" John Wayne, "McLintock" (1963))
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To: Joe Brower; *bang_list
Bang and Bump
15 posted on 06/20/2003 6:18:31 AM PDT by Eaker (Adiós reality; I want to be a Jack-Ass millionaire!!............;<)
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To: Mr. Mojo
After reading this, it is preposterous there is even and argument about the basic and natural right of protecting one's self.

Yet, that day has come.
16 posted on 06/20/2003 6:21:48 AM PDT by smith288 (I wear myseatbelt because I want to, not because the gestapo state makes me.)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; ...
An oldie but goodie. Every gun owner who cares about the RKBA should have these arguments memorized. There will be a test later.


17 posted on 06/20/2003 6:58:59 AM PDT by Joe Brower ("Think like a man of action and act like a man of thought." -- Henri Bergson)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Anyone who believes that no one "needs" a gun has never studied history, has never watched world politics of modern times, has never been the victim of a violent crime, doesn't know the facts about the level of violent crime in the US, believes their government would never assualt them, and is just plain ignorant of firearms to begin with.

Anyone who thinks the founding fathers made the 2nd for the states and not individuals never read the founding fathers' statements about that issue.

I think it is sad that these commies try to tell everyone what the founding fathers meant by the 2nd is that the states, and not individuals, have the right to be armed, while the founding fathers' very own statements were against an armed state and an armed individual citizens.

Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?
18 posted on 06/20/2003 7:13:47 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (If the only way an American can get elected is through Mexican votes, we have a war to be waged.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Excellent, excellent article. Thank you for posting it!
19 posted on 06/20/2003 7:34:44 AM PDT by wysiwyg (No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. --Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Mr. Mojo
EXCELLENT ARTICLE! Bookmarked.
20 posted on 06/20/2003 7:34:55 AM PDT by Constitution Day (Have *you* taunted a liberal today?)
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To: Joe Brower
Yep, it's the Great Debate, all laid out for us!
21 posted on 06/20/2003 7:50:40 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?

It will be a lot easier to shove you in the oven if they do not have to be worried about having their heads blown off.

Molon Labe!

22 posted on 06/20/2003 7:55:39 AM PDT by 11Bush
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To: Mr. Mojo
The Second Amendment contains only a single comma: Look Here.

Also:

The Unabridged Second Amendment

--Boris

23 posted on 06/20/2003 7:56:14 AM PDT by boris
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To: Mr. Mojo
Yes, it is a good article. I would add that if you read the Bill of Rights you would find that what is does is place strict limitions on the power of government by listing the thing it CANNOT do rather than what the people CAN do.
24 posted on 06/20/2003 7:59:50 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?

Because they fear you.

25 posted on 06/20/2003 8:09:23 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Joe Brower
BTTT
26 posted on 06/20/2003 8:13:23 AM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: PatrioticAmerican; Joe Brower; AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; ...
"Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?"

I think you and everyone else knows the answer to that question so I won't belabor the point.

There is a definite propaganda campaign in progress to make all gun owners look like subversives and kooks.
The liberal gun haters haven't been able to beat us by muddying the water with different interpretations of the Second Amendment so they attempt to portray us as enemies of society.

I don't hunt anymore, but I still love to shoot.
When I steer a conversation into shooting, I'm frequently asked, "What do you hunt?"
When I answer, "Nothing. I don't hunt anymore," the response is usually, "Then why do you shoot if not to practice to hunt?"
My answer is always, "Why do fishermen catch and release fish? Because it satisfies something within themselves that is tied to their very primitive roots. It's the same with shooters."

When talking about shooting with various people, most of them won't bring up the Second Amendment because most of them have never read it - or it's been so long they've forgotten what it said.
Most of the anti-gun people I meet will say simply, "I just don't like guns!"
This is a feeling , not a reason.
It's the job of all gun owners to educate these antis to the fact that GOD gave us our rights, not the federal or state governments.
If we're willing to allow them to keep their tennis rackets and bowling balls and fishing boats, they should be willing to allow us to keep our guns.

27 posted on 06/20/2003 8:16:10 AM PDT by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Oh, the rest of today at work should be FUN, I can show this to the owner of the co. I work at, he doesn't think we should have the right to own .50 cal rifles. "What do you need big of a gun for?" His exact quote.

Funny thing is as soon as he asked that question. The owners brother piped up and said, "Well, you don't need your Infinity Q45 ,do you."

28 posted on 06/20/2003 8:35:29 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?

Because they have a desire to turn this country from a republic to a communist state, and the only thing really standing in the way right now are the people and their right to own guns.

You take that away, this place becomes another China. Which is not too far a leap, as our government is already killing citizens for no apparent reason.

29 posted on 06/20/2003 8:38:28 AM PDT by Houmatt (Remember Jeffrey Curley and Jesse Dirkhising!)
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To: OXENinFLA
My father in law and I were shooting his new Marlin cowboy action .45-70 this past Father's day. Fun stuff, but I think he got a bit annoyed that I was a better shot than him with his own gun.

go figure... ;-)

Big guns are just plain FUN to shoot. That, and if the fecal matter hits the oscillating gas propellor, you want the most firepower you can get your mits on.

30 posted on 06/20/2003 8:39:14 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Joe Brower
Well, the school year has just ended and my well deserved summer vacation is just a week old...but I'm going to print this and use it in my classroom for NEXT year!

I try and keep my arguments with LIBERALS in the school system especially, to some very simple core observations on the origin of the 2nd Amendment:
1. The Amendment was crafted during a time of war. The verbiage "well regulated" is not a legal term of art as most would place it today. It is in reality a term of military logistics: "well regulated" really means "of like type and caliber" for logistical and reasons of military discipline.
2. The Amendment was crafted at a time when the legal government was still King George of Britain. Therefore to affix the national guard theory AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, you would in reality have been referring to the Tories loyal to the KING! Do you really think this is what the Founding fathers meant?
3. The Founding fathers were fighting a war against the very concept of a large standing army using the militia made up of all the people. The minute men were to "report at a minutes notice bearing arms kept at home." The militia has been around all this time in this form. The modern national guard was in fact created in 1903.
4. The Second Amendment to the Constitution is also mirrored in many state Constitutions. In Florida there is reference made to the organized militia (national guard) and the UNorganized militia...which is everybody else bearing his own gun. The unorganized militia can be called to active duty at the behest of the governor. In fact, after Hurricane Andrew in 1992, this group was patrolling the streets of many neighborhoods carrying both AR15 and AK variants to keep down looting. Witness the fact that these people were not in any way molested by law enforcement in those first weeks of returning law and order to the area. I was myself in the national guard and saw this personally!

31 posted on 06/20/2003 8:41:57 AM PDT by ExSoldier (M1911A1: The ORIGINAL "Point and Click" interface!)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
"Anyone who thinks the founding fathers made the 2nd for the states and not individuals never read the founding fathers' statements about that issue."

I can never fathom why anyone in the world would argue that one of the rights (RKBA) in the Bill of Rights is a right for government. Isn't it clear that the Bill of Rights is meant to protect the individual from government?

32 posted on 06/20/2003 8:43:16 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: AnAmericanMother
I am pleased that you pointed out this common misquote.

Don't the acurately recorded comments of the founding fathers have enough "teeth" without questionably provided research results?

One of the best things I like about the NRA's "1st Freedom" rag is that, at least so far, I have not found unsubstantiated quotations. Then again, I only spot check.
33 posted on 06/20/2003 8:47:26 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (I need all my guns and ammo to stop you from taking any of them.><>)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Oberon
"Because they fear you."

As well they should. Attn: DiFi, Babs Boxer, Sen. Clinton, etc.
35 posted on 06/20/2003 8:56:35 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (I need all my guns and ammo to stop you from taking any of them.><>)
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To: Mr. Mojo
But the blackrobes are ruling against the people, now into the fouth generation since FDR coerced the SCOTUS in the '30's. Bench law is supreme over the meaningful words in our Constitution and certainly over any God-given right, even if affirmed in our Bill of Rights and our 14th Amenment.

"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Article IX of our Bill of Rights, should our 2nd confuse or confound anyone.

Never mind that Law of the Land dogma.

Blackrobes and their elected plainclosed co-conspirators should understand the clear and true meaning of our document which temporarily provides them limited powers. We the People, while consenting, shall remain in control to protect and defend our Constitution and our nation and ourselves.
36 posted on 06/20/2003 9:19:19 AM PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Joe Brower
Thanks for the flag. It's a good read that's been posted before but I wasn't able to find it. Thanks again.
37 posted on 06/20/2003 9:27:03 AM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (Is anyone else tired of reading these tag lines?)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
"Why are these commies so hell bent on my being disarmed?"

Most of the rank-and-file anti-gunners simply want to feel safe. They don't like guns because "their sole purpose is to kill." They think if there are no guns there will be no killing, ignoring the fact that evil people will always find a way to commit evil acts.
38 posted on 06/20/2003 9:31:26 AM PDT by opus86
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To: Blue Collar Christian
It's absolutely beholden on us to be as accurate as we can, because the gun-grabbers will seize on any inaccuracy, and use that to discredit our entire argument.

"Falsus in unum, falsus in omnes" ("it it's false in one, it's false in all") is a common legal maxim. Don't let 'em use it on us!

39 posted on 06/20/2003 9:33:19 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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To: ExSoldier
Remember though that the war was well over by the time the Constitutional Convention met, in 1787. And the Bill of Rights was formulated later still, and presented to the states in 1789. So the rulers were no longer George III and his ministers - of course since July 4, 1776 they were not from the Americans' point of view, and the victory at Yorktown in 1781 backed that up factually.

I think it would be more accurate to say that all the Framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had just come through a war that was ruinous financially and emotionally to most of them. (It was a very near-run thing.) All had suffered under the oppressive rule of King George and his ministers. So they were wary of giving power to the government, and more wary still of a "standing army" - i.e. a government force administered by the government. And as you correctly pointed out, they had never heard of a "National Guard" and would have considered it just another "standing army" if they had.

Your Hurricane Andrew argument is the best of all. It gives practical shape to the eternal truth that every man has not only the God-given RIGHT but the RESPONSIBILITY to defend himself, his family, and his community.

40 posted on 06/20/2003 9:41:04 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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To: opus86
They think if there are no guns there will be no killing.

I'm sure that all the victims of violence before the Fifteenth Century -- right back to poor old Abel -- will be relieved to hear that they didn't get killed after all! << /heavy sarcasm >>

41 posted on 06/20/2003 9:43:57 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Great post.

One of the biggest lessons being taught here is the origin of rights, not the second amendment. Sadly, it is one that many, many Freepers have yet to learn. They think we get our rights from an omnipotent government.

42 posted on 06/20/2003 10:06:30 AM PDT by Protagoras (Putting government in charge of morality is like putting pedophiles in charge of children.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Bump for reading later.
43 posted on 06/20/2003 10:33:10 AM PDT by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: Mr. Mojo
Bookmarked!

Here are a few other good quotes:

Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, 7 October 1789: "The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."

Andrew Ford (UseNet): "The price of liberty is, always has been, and always will be blood: The person who is not willing to die for his liberty has already lost it to the first scoundrel who is willing to risk dying to violate that person's liberty! Are you free?"

Andrew Ford (UseNet): "Without either the first or second amendment, we would have no liberty; the first allows us to find out what's happening, the second allows us to do something about it! The second will be taken away first, followed by the first and then the rest of our freedoms."

Benjamin Franklin, 1759 (Franklin B. Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759): "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Bill McIntire, Spokesman for the National Rifle Association, on Norfolk, Va. council's vote to cancel four gun shows, 1992: "Banning gun shows to reduce violent crime will work about as well as banning auto shows to reduce drunken driving."

"Guns cause crime, like flies cause garbage." --Author unknown.

Byron C. Radaker, Chairman and C.E.O., Congoleum Corp.: "Our government has found that the most effective way to control a person is not by the ballot or the bullet, but rather by the 'bucket'. Today, in a country that fought a revolution to rid itself of a repressive government and excessive taxes, government takes 40 percent of everything we earn in the form of taxes."

California citizen attempting to purchase a firearm for self-defense during rioting in Los Angeles, week of 30 April 1992: "What do you mean 'wait fifteen days'? This is America!"

Daniel Webster: "God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."

Daniel Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

David Veal (Usenet): "For every action there is an equal, and opposite, government program"

Edmund Burke (1729-1797): "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke, 1784: "The people never give up their liberty but under some delusion." [Contrast the above with U.S. Senator Joseph Biden's statement: "Banning guns is an idea whose time has come" as reported on 18 November, 1993, by the Associated Press.]

Edward Abbey: "The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state controlled police and the military are the weapons of dictatorship. The rifle is the weapon of democracy... If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government - and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws."

"See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime." --Frederic Bastiat

Gandhi: "You may think your actions are meaningless and that they won't help, but that is no excuse, you must still act."

George Bush, Made to Robert Sherman of American Atheist Press at the Chicago airport, August 27 1988. The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27, 1989. It can also be found in "Free Enquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue, Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.: "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

George Washington: "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good ..."

H.L. Mencken: "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."

James Earl Jones: "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will loose."

James Madison: "Resistance to tyranny is service to God."

John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1787-88): "Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion... in private self-defense..." [Contrast the above with Attorney General Janet Reno's statement: "Gun registration is not enough. I've always proposed state licensing... with some federal standards." as reported by the Associated Press and by ABC on 10 December, 1993.]

Leroy Pyle on Assault Rifles: "You didn't hear Elliot Ness whining about Al Capone's machine gun."

Mark Twain: "What if you were an idiot, and what if you were a member of Congress? But I repeat myself."

Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning "Red Planet": "...I am opposed to all attempts to license or restrict the arming of individuals...I consider such laws a violation of civil liberty, subversive of democratic political institutions, and self-defeating in their purpose."

Samuel Adams: "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

Senator Edward V. Long: "The IRS has become morally corrupted by the enormous power which we in Congress have unwisely entrusted to it. Too often it acts like a Gestapo preying upon defenseless citizens."

Dem Sen. Howard Metzenbaum (sponsor) during the floor debate of the Brady Bill, 1993 "I don't care about crime, I just want to get the guns." "No, we're not looking at how to control criminals ... we're talking about banning the AK-47 and semi-automatic guns." "I'm not interested in getting a bill that deals with airport security... all I want to do is get at plastic guns."

Thomas Jefferson [A quote from Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939]: "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Tom Anderson: "I wonder why some of the so-called guardians of freedom are so anxious to register guns and so reluctant to register Communists."

Winston Churchill: "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans..." - President Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)

Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament'. If we make enough laws, we can all be criminals.

"It appears that the murder rate inside prisons is ten times higher than that outside prisons. It must be due to all those Kalashnikov rifles that are issued to prisoners upon their incarceration." --Jeff Cooper in Guns & Ammo magazine, August, 1989.

"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." --Luke 22:36

44 posted on 06/20/2003 10:35:08 AM PDT by Doomonyou
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To: ExSoldier
1. The Amendment was crafted during a time of war. The verbiage "well regulated" is not a legal term of art as most would place it today. It is in reality a term of military logistics: "well regulated" really means "of like type and caliber" for logistical and reasons of military discipline. 2. The Amendment was crafted at a time when the legal government was still King George of Britain. Therefore to affix the national guard theory AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, you would in reality have been referring to the Tories loyal to the KING! Do you really think this is what the Founding fathers meant?

The second amendent was crafted by the first Congress, although similar provisions existed in the Constitutions of some states, and also showed up in the state conventions which ratified the main body of the Constitution. Some states refused to ratify absent a bill of rights, others only ratified because they were promised that the first Congress would pass one and send it to the state legislatures for ratification. The BOR was passed in 1791, the peace treaty ending the revolutionary war was signed at Paris in 1783, even though the war itself ended a couple of years earlier, so we were not at war with England at the time, nor was the King George the lawful ruler, and had not been for over a decade. The memory was fresh however. The militia was not then defined in federal law, that came the following year.

Bottom line, you need to revise your arguements a bit. I find Hardy's "The Second Amendment and the Historiography of the Bill of Rights" to be very good. Also see To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right, Joyce Lee Malcom, Harvard University Press, 1994. Another good source of material is GunCite which contains a very meaty excerpt from Malcom's book.

45 posted on 06/20/2003 10:40:02 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: Mr. Mojo
This is silly. The right to bear arms is a collective right, just like the right to free speech.
46 posted on 06/20/2003 10:52:10 AM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: opus86
They think if there are no guns there will be no killing, ignoring the fact that evil people will always find a way to commit evil acts.

They need to recall that no guns, nor even swords or knives, (unless you consider a boxcutter a knife, which it may technically be) were used on 9-11-2001, yet around 3000 people died.

Four guns in the right hands could have prevented those deaths, but the federal government in it's infinite (lack of) wisdom, forbade those "right hands" from having guns. Even now they continue to forbid it, unless those "hands" are those of volunteer Federal law enforcement officers (known as Federal Flight Deck Officers. (Wouldn't want to legitimize the notion that mere citizens could be armed in order to defend themselves and others, now would they?) See also ALPA who are not happy about many aspects of the FFDO program.

47 posted on 06/20/2003 10:55:58 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: Doomonyou
I just thought I'd point out that you have a quote from George Bush - "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - and above it, a quote from avowed atheist Edward Abbey.

Still a very nice list, regardless.

48 posted on 06/20/2003 11:14:32 AM PDT by inquest
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To: El Gato
Thanks...I stand corrected. I'll try and fine tune this to accomodate the new facts but I find the arguments to be cogent and persuasive as they stand. There is a danger to being too picky while debating, as long as your arguments do not turn on outright fallacy...I'd hate to substantively change a winning combo. I've never been challenged on this set of arguments, even by other history teachers. Only freepers! LOL Thanks for keeping me on my toes. Any ideas on how to SIMPLY do this, so that it remains simple and easy to remember?
49 posted on 06/20/2003 11:43:04 AM PDT by ExSoldier (M1911A1: The ORIGINAL "Point and Click" interface!)
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To: Mr. Mojo
I think that the interpretation of words like militia, citizen levies, well-regulated, etc are whatever at least five members of the Supreme Court determine them to mean, regardless of what the founders meant, unfortunately.
50 posted on 06/20/2003 11:46:53 AM PDT by Consort
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