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To: Alamo-Girl; unspun; Phaedrus; logos; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; r9etb; gore3000; tortoise; ...
This runs long, and is hard work. But IMHO it is totally worth the time and energy expended! I welcome your thoughts...if you have the interest and the motivation.
2 posted on 07/05/2003 4:25:42 PM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
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To: betty boop; Heartlander; ALS; bondserv; donh; dogbyte12; longshadow; BMCDA; Right Wing Professor; ..
This runs long, and is hard work. But IMHO it is totally worth the time and energy expended! I welcome your thoughts...if you have the interest and the motivation.

I'm kinda still working on the names here (Menas Kefatos, Mihai Drãgãnescu, Attila Grandpierre) but sure, why not?

The names of baseball players, Hollywood actors, talent show singers, reality tv performers, and American politicians are easier, though....

3 posted on 07/05/2003 5:31:32 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love." - No I don't look anything like her but I do like to hear "Unspun w/ AnnaZ")
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To: betty boop
In the end, this solar physicist speculates that the final cause of our universe and all life in it is extra-cosmic — completely outside of space and time. Well, duh! Even the notion of a 'big bang' begs the question of 'from what'. I'll side with Feynman's speculation and accept that this is all a bubble on the negative side of a greater positive whole, kind of an 'implosion of specificity' perculated out of a greater dimensional reality.
7 posted on 07/05/2003 5:52:38 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: betty boop
Wonderful article! Makes some very interesting points such as life is a struggle against the other laws of the Universe and thus is different from it.
36 posted on 07/05/2003 8:54:44 PM PDT by gore3000 (Intelligent people do not believe in evolution.)
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To: betty boop
Good morning and WOW and thank you so very much!!!

I knew you had posted this last night, but wanted to wait until I was mentally alert to begin looking over all your excellent research. As you know, it is very much the sort of thing which interests me!!!

I'll post back after reading through all the links.

57 posted on 07/06/2003 6:27:04 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; unspun; Phaedrus; logos; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; r9etb; gore3000; ...
This is a “new kind of science,” indeed. May it prosper!

Science? Well, I suppose there are those who call astrology, alchemy, and hololistic medicine science. To the sane, it is just so much more mystic nonsense, except that it exhibits a familiarity with some scientific terms and concepts and uses those to put over its irrational ideas.

For example:

The “important forms of consciousness” that Kefatos and Drãgãnescu want to take into consideration are, broadly speaking, the following:

(1) natural human consciousness (related to mind and life);
(2) artificial, supposedly human-like consciousness (to be eventually obtained if some structures of hardware develop quantum phenomena similar to those of the human mind); and
(3) Fundamental Consciousness of existence

Life is a self-sustained goal-oreinted process associated with an entity called an organism. The goal of the process is the success and continuation of the organism as an organism.

Consciousness is an aspect of life. Only living organisms are conscious. Every organism exhibits some kinds of "response" to external influences, for example, that a non-living entity does not. That reaction or "response," even in the simplest of creatures, is rudimentary consciousness, in the simplest creatures, called sentience.

Now Kefatos and Drãgãnescu evidently do not even have this simple understanding of the nature of consciousness, jumping immediately to the highest form of consciousness in human beings, that is, conceptual, or rational/volitional consciousness. This ignores the much simpler perceptual consciousness common to all higher organisms (animals, for example). Armed with this ignorance they make profound assertions about "forms" of consciousness, like, "supposedly human-like consciousness (to be eventually obtained if some structures of hardware develop quantum phenomena similar to those of the human mind ..."

Well, it might be more profitable to attempt producing "animal-like" conscious, before attempting something as profound as "human-like," but even if we let that go, the dazzling stupidity that could with a straight face say, "quantum phenomena similar to those of the human mind," is almost incredible. They seem to make the simplest of mistakes (and actually counter their own [ahem] thesis) that equates the brain and the mind. We can assure Mssrs. Kefatos and Drãgãnescu there are no "quatum phenomena" in the mind. (The are plenty in the brain, of course, but just as many in the nose and big toe, so that approach is not going to be very enlightening, we think.)

If we did not know better, we would probably assume the following came from the pen of Charles Dodgson, but alas, it is apparently meant seriously. Behold, no doubt among the impossible things the queen believes before breakfast is, "Fundamental Consciousness of existence

." It might help some if what is meant by "existence" were specifically stated, but since it is not, we must assume it means one of the following: all of material existence or all that exists in any mode, including consciousness, dreams, fictions, history, works of art, forums, etc. In either case, since consciousness is an aspect of a living organism, "existence" would, to be conscious, have to be a living organism. Since existence is an organism, everything existence does is to sustain itself as an organism. Therefore....

There cannot be a therefore to such absurdities.

It turns out this is not a, “new kind of science,” at all, but a very old one, that has come in many flavors over the years, but today has a common and familiar name. It's called junk science.

Hank

60 posted on 07/06/2003 8:05:30 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: betty boop
MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR

Too magical for me, BB.

Readers might be also be interested in Grandpierre's comments on punk music.

66 posted on 07/06/2003 9:23:44 AM PDT by Nebullis
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To: betty boop

bttt


719 posted on 01/06/2008 1:23:57 PM PST by southland (Fred Thompson/ John Bolton /08)
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