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Carelessness and Casualness in worship
The Middletown Bible Church ^ | 08/19/03 | various authors

Posted on 08/19/2003 7:56:34 PM PDT by RaceBannon

Carelessness and Casualness in Worship

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself [conduct thyself] in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

"God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about Him." (Psalm 89:7)

Whatever Happened to our Sunday Best? by Dr. Paul Tassell

The Way We Dress Should Show That We Honor the Lord!

One trend I have noted in local churches in recent years is carelessness. Carelessness in dress. Many people attend the house of God attired the same way they would dress for a rodeo or a football game.

When people are to be guests at the White House for a meeting with the President, they dress up—suits and ties for the men; pretty dresses for the ladies. Appropriate dress indicates appropriate respect. When the President speaks to a joint session of congress, the gallery guests as well as the lawmakers are all dressed in their best.

Does not our Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church, deserve as much consideration and respect as our President? Does not your pastor deserve that much respect for his message?

I grew up in a home with two brothers and three sisters. My job every Saturday night was to polish eight pairs of shoes My parents taught us six children to "dress up in our Sunday best" for the house of God. When my wife and I go to hear our pastor, we dress up. We respect him, and we respect the Lord he represents.

Pastors and their wives should lead the way in setting a proper example of dressing for the occasion. More than once I have been disappointed at a classy restaurant where I was meeting with a group of businessmen and a pastor, only to have the pastor show up open-collared and inappropriately informal while all the businessmen were dressed in three-piece suits and ties. I do not believe the pastor's influence and testimony were enhanced by such a breach of etiquette.

I know the Lord looks on the heart, and clothes don't necessarily make the man, but how we dress when we go to a worship service ought to indicate how much we honor our Lord. We do not have to be fashion models, but we should "dress up" for our Saviour's special day at His special house, the local church. The spirit of what I am saying is captured in the words of Malachi:

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a Master, where is My fear (reverence)? saith the Lord of hosts unto you, O priests (Malachi 1:6).

"Just as I Am" is an invitation for sinners, not a description of how the saints are to attend a church service. The Prodigal Son came home in rags. As soon as his father accepted him, however, he was dressed in a fine robe; shoes were put on his feet and a ring on his finger. Before Joseph went in to have an audience with Pharaoh, "he shaved himself, and changed his raiment" (Genesis 41:14). So should we look our best when going to the house of God to worship the Lord of the Church.

I am not pleading for barring anyone from a church service because of the way he or she is dressed. But I do think visitors to our services ought to be impressed by how special we believe our church and Lord to be as we "dress up."

Let's not allow our local churches to become sanctuaries of the sloppy and temples of the tacky. Let's respect our Master, minister and message. --Dr. Paul Tassell

* * * * * * * *

God's Holy and Special Person requires reverence on the part of those who know Him and who seek to honor His Name. "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about Him" (Psalm 89:7). He is the great and awe-inspiring God who demands our worshipful respect, not only in the way we dress, but also in the way we sing.

We dress in a proper and special way on the Lord's Day because it is a special occasion and we are meeting with a special Person, even the God who is to be feared and revered. Because of this special occasion and special Person, we want to sing in a manner that is appropriate and befitting such a worthy and glorious God. It is a time of worship, not entertainment. Applause runs horizontally and relates to man's humanity and not vertically relating to God's deity. It is out of place in the place that is seeking only to point to God and honor Him.

The dressing, the singing, the bending of the heart before God in humble worship—all of this is but the preparation of one's heart attitude for the glad reception of God's Holy Word. The One who is high and holy is looking for those who will tremble at His Word (Isaiah 66:1-2). He is looking for those who will bow before the authority of His Word. "Speak Lord, for Thy servant is listening."

Right dressing encourages right thinking. Right thinking encourages right singing. Right singing readies and tunes the heart for thankful learning. May God's Word dwell in us richly and may God the Master Musician produce His melody in our hearts to His praise (Col. 3:16). "And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD" (Psalm 40:3).

* * * * * *

Casualness in the Way We Sing

by Robert Regal

Music, The Barometer of a Society The church has swallowed the monstrous heresy that noise (music), size, bluster and activity, make a man dearer to God. --A. W. Tozer The article by Dr. Tassell and the above quote of Dr. Tozer should sound an alarm in the midst of the saints who have gone to sleep at the helm of the "Good Ship Grace," and have turned aside from "the faith once delivered to the saints." The Church, the "Body" and "Bride" of Christ, made up of local assemblies around the world has been impacted in our time by the "spirit of the world" (1 Corinthians 2:12). This is foreign to God's ideal which is delineated in the rest of the verse: "...but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

Many of the saints of our time seem unable to discern "the Spirit of God" from "the spirit of the world." We are commanded not to love the world, nor be enamored by it, and never to be dominated by it. We are not to be "conformed to the world, but transformed by the renewing of the mind," for "...we have the mind of Christ" (Romans 12:2; 1 Corinthians 2:16).

Particular contemporary musical styles have become classic examples of the "spirit of the world" invading the church. Not only have they invaded the assemblies of believers world wide, but they dominate. Try to address it and the assembly splits. Leadership hesitates to address it for fear of creating unnecessary waves, and, "after all, we must get together in our day; we must unite on the main issues and not be overly concerned by doctrine." (I might add, we need to be sure that it is sound doctrine.) First, certain styles of the musical language are tolerated, this is soon followed by domination (down with the traditional, conservative, stylings) which, in turn, leads to compromise.

A consequence of this invasion affects the life style of the believer. Where you find an emphasis on much of contemporary stylings, you will notice a cloak of casualness that moves in among the saints. Thus the timely article of Dr. Tassell. If this situation is addressed the assembly cries out, "legalism!"

The style of music will not only affect the attitude of the saint in the area of clothes, grooming, and personal deportment, but in theology. It fosters a looseness in the spirit of worship, teaching, edification and fellowship. I have observed in many of the churches in which I have visited this "casualness," not only in attire, but in fellowship (conversation, noise), which becomes boisterous to the point that the pastor or man of music, or whoever is in charge, has great difficulty in beginning the service. What makes it worse is that the fellowship (conversation, noise), usually has nothing to do with the purpose of the church meeting together. What has created this mood and encouraged this pre-service situation?

One of the strengths of music and its varied styles are the moods and the emotions it generates. I am not saying that Pop, rock, in all its versions, Western, Country Western, Jazz, Folk, Stamp Baxter, New Age, Contemporary, and such like, are not part of the musical language, for they are an expression that comes out of our age and culture, which culture, in many areas, is caught up in insipid subjectivism and decadence. What I am saying is that these styles and idioms speak of the world and its culture good and bad and are thus disqualified to be the musical vehicle for the saints in worship, fellowship, evangelism, and the Christian life in general. The following are two quotes supporting this position:

The development of form in music itself is an attempt to reach completeness through an artistic media. Music having a definite secular symbolism is poor music for worship. Jazz, etc. is confusing. It is too much like everyday life to be ultimately satisfying. (Emphasis Mine)

--Dr. Bernstein, Professor of Music, New York University

Art and music always reflect a particular view on life and the world. Deeply felt values are expressed through the way the theme and subject matter are handled. Thus, even junk and punk rock say something very definite, very deliberate. What rock is saying in today's culture disqualifies it as a vehicle for spiritual communication.

Reduced to its smallest component parts, music is amoral. There is nothing inherently wrong with 440 hz vibration or a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth note. The same could be said for a letter in the alphabet or a drop of paint or a particle of clay. But as soon as a human being combines any of these building blocks, the creative process has begun and the resulting creation always reflects a view of life.

For this reason, the Christian cannot sanitize rock. Even if we ignored the worldly associations of rock (and we cannot), its musical origins spring from a view of life altogether different from the Christian's. Because Christ must be the focal point of our music, the style must never overshadow Him or draw attention to itself. (Emphasis mine)

--Peck, "Rock, Making Musical Choices"

For too long the church has assumed and taken for granted its musical heritage which is rich in great hymn and gospel composition wedded to magnificent texts both in subjectivity and objectivity, that have passed testing through the channels of time and have emerged in our day arranged and rearranged, added to and extended, imbued with the touch of the art of great musical invention. Excellent music has been and is being written in our day, but one has to sift through and discern its textual and musical values and not be caught up in the argument for style. God gave us the substance of music, man gives us the style. There are 12 tones in our music scale. The arrangement of these tones in melody and harmony, the pulse of the meter that drives it and guides it, the text that gives the composition meaning, all fall into a style that must be thought about.

It should be remembered that two areas are involved in music ministry in and to the assembly, and for that manner, to each other and to ourselves. See Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16 and Hebrews 13:15. Two languages are wedded together and both have a grammar, a syntax, and a rhetoric: Lyrics, or the word text, and composition, the music text. This then is the substance of musical expression, which expression becomes the barometer of a society. If this is true, and it is, then we could say without any provocation, that it is also a barometer of the church and its condition in society, and in its address to today's culture.

The Lord Jesus is a model for every believer. He was in the world but was not of the world: "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:14). He was sent on a mission to the world, a world which hated Him, and He in turn has sent believers into the world, and in turn, the world will hate them; that is, if they are truly believers and love Him and desire to please Him as He pleased the Father, and realize that they also are on a mission to the world. See John 17:15-21.

The Lord Jesus, in verse 21, requested unity for the future believers (see also verse 11 and verse 22). These verses have been misused and abused by the promoters of the present ecumenical movement.

"Admittedly the divided church is in many ways a scandal. The cure, however, is not institutional union. Jesus was not praying for the unity of a single, worldwide, ecumenical church in which doctrinal heresy would be maintained along with orthodoxy. Instead, He was praying for the unity of love, a unity of obedience to God and His Word, and a united commitment to His will. There are great differences between uniformity, union, and unity." (Emphasis Mine)

The Bible Knowledge Commentary (NT), p. 333

All believers belong to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the world should know of their spiritual unity by their life style. This life style, whether the church or the world, is expressed through the greatest medium of expression we know, musical expression, the heart of this discussion. Nowhere in the Word of God am I encouraged to adopt the musical language that expresses the world that hates God and the believer, for as Dr. Bernstein wrote...."music having a definite secular symbolism is poor music for worship...it is confusing. It is too much like everyday life to be ultimately satisfying."

"When you take great theology and wed it to grand musicology, it ascends before God in magnificent doxology." Stephen Olford

--Robert Regal From the book: With the Voice of Singing

Additional Thoughts

On Worship

REVERENCE BEFORE THE AWE-INSPIRING GOD

If we are going to know God who is holy, we need to reverence and fear Him. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Prov. 1:7). Since God truly is such a unique and awesome Person, He ought to have our respect. When we speak of His Name and Fame we ought to have a healthy response that reverences Him because of who He is.

Worship is intimately connected with the reverence and fear of God. Worship means to prostrate oneself before God, to bend down, to bow down, to bend the knee and thus to bend the heart. "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our Maker" (Psalm 95:6).

We need to read the Bible with an understanding that God has all authority. He has the right to be worshipped and reverenced. The least I can do is hear what He says and respond to what He says in the right way. I may not understand all He says, but at least I will give Him reverence. I will bend my heart and bow before the authority of His Word.

The Bible describes God as a "terrible God." This means that He inspires terror, fear, dread. He is awe-inspiring, demanding our deepest respect because of WHO HE IS and WHAT HE HAS SAID. "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible [awe-inspiring]" (Deut. 10:17). "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD" (Deut. 28:58). May He be your fear! May He be your dread! (Isaiah 8:13).

THE MISSING INGREDIENT

Whatever characterizes the religious attitude of our day, it is not reverence and awe. Rarely can one enter a church today, where the hustled silence in the atmosphere makes one conscious of the presence of Him who is a "consuming fire." The head bowed "waiting in silence for God only," the tuning of the heart, the tremulous expectancy have gone out of worship. A babble of voices and a discussion of trivial affairs is not an atmosphere conducive to doing business with the living God.

Here are some suggestions as you prepare for the worship service: 1. Remember that when the organ begins playing the prelude, God's people are to be silent. There is to be a "holy hush" as believers prepare their hearts to meet a holy God. Refrain from talking and chatting with your pew neighbor so that your mind will be centered on the Lord rather than on self and others. 2. The moments may be used for silent prayer—remembering yourself and your own heart attitude, the Pastor, the choir and the other worshippers. 3. The moments may be used for prayerful meditation—you could think upon a verse of Scripture or you could meditate upon what you learned from the Pastor's last message. 4. Remember the words from Psalm 46:10--"BE STILL, and know that I am God: I WILL BE EXALTED among the heathen, I WILL BE EXALTED in the earth."

HOW TO WORSHIP

Be silent. Be thoughtful.

Be reverent, for this is the house of the Lord.

Before the service, speak to God.

During the service, let God speak to you.

After the service, speak to one another.

LEARNING FROM THE ANGELS

"When we consider what glorious beings the angels are, and yet that they are but creatures of, and servants to, the God whom we serve, waiting before His Throne, and humbly attending His commands; this consideration, if we let it sink deeply into our hearts, must needs possess us with most awful apprehensions of the glorious majesty of our God at all times, but especially in our approaches to Him in His worship, and fill us with the greatest reverence and humility. With what reverence should we behave ourselves in our addresses to the Divine Majesty, before whom the Seraphim themselves hide their faces! And if they cover their feet, are conscious to themselves of their natural imperfection, compared to the infinitely glorious God; how should we clods of earth, we vile sinners, blush and be ashamed in His presence, assuming no confidence to ourselves, but what is founded on the mercies of God and the merits of our blessed Redeemer and Advocate, Jesus Christ!"--Bishop Bull (1634-1710)

IMPROVING THE PASTOR'S PREACHING

Sunday the sermon was sluggish, 'twas hard attention to keep.

The theme was faultily chosen, it almost put me to sleep.

Monday was blue with sheer boredom; Tuesday was carnal by choice.

Wednesday my conscience was wakened by pleas from a still small voice.

Prayer Meeting left me uplifted, loyalty lingering long.

Thursday my heart was responding; Friday His nudging was strong.

I came to thorough repentance the following Saturday;

I yielded in full surrender as all on the altar I lay.

Sunday the sermon was perfect, superb and quite at its peak;

Amazing how greatly the Pastor improved in the space of one week!

* * * * * Come with a prayerful attitude and a prepared heart. You will find it to be one of the best ways of improving the Pastor's preaching! There will be more POWER in the pulpit when there is more PRAYERFULNESS and PREPAREDNESS in the pew!

The Middletown Bible Church 349 East Street Middletown, CT 06457 (860) 346-0907 More articles under The Local Church


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; US: Connecticut
KEYWORDS: carelessness; ccm; sin
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To: Theo
I can't believe that the all loving humble God on The Cross is a megalomaniac.

I believe God's jealousy for His Glory with us

IS FOR OUR BENEFIT.

He's not about to have a repeat of satan rebelling against Him and trying to be God.

God wants us to get the order very extremely right and never forget it.


just IMHO.
261 posted on 08/20/2003 10:31:51 AM PDT by Quix (DEFEAT her unroyal lowness, her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillery Antoinette de Fosterizer de MarxNOW)
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To: Theo
The citation of the Satan theory, as I recall (and yes it was from the Puritan author) is in "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Albert Edersheim. A Jewish Christian who wrote the book a little over a century ago. He was noting the similarity of a rabbinic doctrine to Edwards'. I'll have to dig up that book and find the reference. I hope it gives enough information about where to find it in Edwards.
262 posted on 08/20/2003 10:36:44 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Quix
I guess the point that I'm trying to bring out is that the Creator has objectively and accurately assessed the He is the most perfect being in existence, and that all things are evaluated in light of Him, and that all good things come from Him, and that the ultimate source of joy is Him.

His sharing that information is a revealing of His glory. And it is wrong to obscure that information. So He wants that happy news to be proclaimed, and He is jealous that that information be heard....

Megalomaniac? Cool word, but I don't see how the Creator could be considered that....

263 posted on 08/20/2003 10:38:08 AM PDT by Theo
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To: RaceBannon
"One trend I have noted in local churches in recent years is carelessness. Carelessness in dress. Many people attend the house of God attired the same way they would dress for a rodeo or a football game."

Unlike the so-called "Christian" fashion police I stay after church to clean up after the fellowship meal. My dress for church is usually jeans and a T-shirt, because I know that I'll be working in the kitchen after the service.

I would suspect that the people that write articles like this one can't get home quick enough after the fellowship meal is over!

As the Bible says, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

264 posted on 08/20/2003 10:38:54 AM PDT by Destructor
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To: Taliesan
It amazes me how all the defenders of a weak worship service and rock music in the church twist the words I speak.

I said no such thing as you accused me of.

What I was saying is that people who claim to be saved should look the part, act the part, and believe the part for the sake of their own witness before men and angels.

But all you can do is take the idea of looking decent in church, take the idea of listening to Godly music instead of worldly music and make it into something I never suggested: Some form of outward judging. What I have constantly saying is: If a person is truly changed, there should be some evidences of it.

Wow, you guys are so marching in lock step on this, it just proves another point; that most of the church does not even know what it means to behave in the Church of God anymore.

I have to admit, I am stunned.

(Rev 3:15 KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

(Rev 3:16 KJV) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

(Rev 3:17 KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

(Rev 3:18 KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

(Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



265 posted on 08/20/2003 10:43:53 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Quix
God has to lavish an utterly ridiculous amount of continuous love upon sinners to bring them safely into heaven. Because sinners still have a sin nature until they die. We live every moment by the mercy of the cross.
266 posted on 08/20/2003 10:44:49 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: HiTech RedNeck
I found a reference to Jonathan Edwards in Edersheim's book:

http://www.graciouscall.org/books/edersheim/lifetime/lta_13.html

I haven't looked it over yet, but am interested to do so. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. My "prejudice" (for what it's worth, without having read it yet) is that Edwards is being misunderstood, or that he was saying something in his 1700s-speak that could be interpreted wrongly. But perhaps his doctrine was wrong! :-)

267 posted on 08/20/2003 10:44:52 AM PDT by Theo
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To: Quix
Anyone ever heard of giving God your best? Also, grooming is a courtesty to others (John the Baptist was an exception). For example, tucking in a t-shirt shows that you respect others enough to take the time to get dressed and not be sloppy. (don't flame me, I understand that some people due to weight or build can't tuck in -- ok, understand we're not talking judgementalism or legalism here - just basic grooming)

Also, for the best witnessing, a person shouldn't dress so that their outward appearance is a distraction to the person they're talking with. For instance, at our Bible College there was a girl w/dreadlocks. They were huge and overtook all other features about her. Certainly as Christians, IF WE WERE PERFECT, we wouldn't let it distract us. But we ARE human. And the lost person she may be talking with is not going to be focused on the spiritual to begin with. So, as much as possible, a person who is truly concerned about being humble, not seeking attention, and wanting to reach the person they're talking with, it's best if their outward dress and grooming is not a distraction.

(And BTW, nobody was legalistic at our school -- no one ever mentioned her hair or told her to cut it. After the 1st year of school, she decided on her own to do that, and it's beautful and undistracting now. Same story for a student who came to school w/a tongue post. No one said a word, and after a year it was gone. This was just wisdom on their part, because the most important thing to both of them was to get through to the lost (not to draw attention to their bodies.)

268 posted on 08/20/2003 10:46:07 AM PDT by bets
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To: Theo
Agreed, but we were created for the praise of His glory (Eph 1 '... in order that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be fro the praise of His glory ...'

We are the pinnacle of His creation and destined to rule it with Him as His sons and Daughters.

What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? ou made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. Is messanic, but it's about you and me too. Think about it .. at this moment there is a fully human, human being seated on the throne of God and we are going to be just like Him.

But we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

269 posted on 08/20/2003 10:46:16 AM PDT by tx_eggman
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To: RaceBannon
How do you know it's "weak"? I can't tell, from the description. It may be very powerful.
270 posted on 08/20/2003 10:46:31 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: fightinJAG
If the body of christ didn't encumber itself with huge payrolls and mortgage payments, money wouldn't be the driving force. The resources of believers could be used to meet the needs of believers and to finance those known personally to be doing the work of proclaiming Christ to those who have not heard.

Another great contemporary Christian song comes to mind: I Can Only Imagine

=)
271 posted on 08/20/2003 10:46:31 AM PDT by SpinnerWebb
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Here's the relevant quote, I think. It's actually a quote of Edersheim, only the 'single quotes' being what Edwards said:

"After describing how 'Satan, before his fall, was the chief of all the angels ... nay, ... the Messiah or Christ (!), as he was the Anointed, so that in the respect, Jesus Christ is exalted unto his place in heaven'; and that 'Lucifer or Satan, while a holy angel ... was a type of Christ,' the great American divine explains his fall as follows: 'But when it was revealed to him, high and glorious as he was, that he must be a ministering spirit ot the race of mankind which he had seen newly created, which appeared so feeble, mean, and despicable, of vastly inferior not only to him, the prince of the angels, and head of the created universe, but also to the inferior angels, and that he must be subject to one of that race which should hereafter be born, he could not bear it, This occasioned his fall' (Tractate on 'The Fall of the Angels,' Works, vol. ii. pp. 608, 609, 610)." I'm interested to know what the words were before "... the Messiah or Christ" -- Edersheim cut those words out (hence, the elipsis)....

Edwards uses the phrase "a type of Christ" to describe the pre-fallen Satan, and then goes on to explain himself. The explanation seems non-heretical....

272 posted on 08/20/2003 10:51:38 AM PDT by Theo
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To: Theo
Megalomaniac? Cool word, but I don't see how the Creator could be considered that....

I think the point may be, that God is totally relational in His being. The Son, the Father, the Holy Spirit -- none of them glorify themselves without somehow involving one or more of the others.

273 posted on 08/20/2003 10:52:27 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: RaceBannon
What I have constantly saying is: If a person is truly changed, there should be some evidences of it.

Race, what people have been saying back to you is that the evidence of change is in a person's spirit, and is displayed not by the clothes they wear, but by the love they show.

274 posted on 08/20/2003 10:59:48 AM PDT by Ol' Sox
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Hmmm...

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love
275 posted on 08/20/2003 11:00:56 AM PDT by tx_eggman
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To: RaceBannon
I understand your point of view, but all I ask for is that fellow worshipers be dressed decently and if possible clean.
Looking back over the years I think the new relaxed attitude about attire for church began when women were finally allowed to wear slacks to church. Maybe this is before your time, but that was a big issue once.
And, at about the same time there was a decline in church attendance for other reasons.
To be fair, Americans don't seem to dress up for anything anymore, except weddings.
276 posted on 08/20/2003 11:02:03 AM PDT by LibertyAndJusticeForAll
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To: RaceBannon
take the idea of looking decent in church, take the idea of listening to Godly music instead of worldly music
begging the question
... and make it into something I never suggested

Is that not exactly what you are are suggesting?

Ipse dixit. On what basis?

277 posted on 08/20/2003 11:07:07 AM PDT by LTCJ
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To: RaceBannon
So we're all going to hell, Race has spoken ..

Back at'cha buddy ...

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

278 posted on 08/20/2003 11:07:37 AM PDT by tx_eggman
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To: tx_eggman
The doom-and-gloom predictions he quotes are for the church as a body, not individual Christians.

I don't think, this side of heaven, Race will ever consider a church that uses rock style music as anything more than lukewarm. We'll see. The proof is in the pudding. If it remains vibrant for years then obviously Race mispredicted it. I'm learning not to second-guess the Holy Spirit, whether in charismatic or non, Calvinist or Arminian, or born-again Catholic or Orthodox, electric guitar or antique organ.
279 posted on 08/20/2003 11:15:28 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Here's Jonathan Edwards' original writing:

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/works2/htm/xii.ii.htm

As I thought, Edersheim is playing fast and loose with Edwards' words, cutting out phrases and either marking the resulting sentences with elispis ... or not including elipsis at all. The part that refers to Satan as "Messiah" is explained by Edwards, but is entirely cut out of Edersheim's "quote":

"Hence learn that Satan before his fall was the Messiah or Christ, as he was the anointed. The word anointed is radically the same in Hebrew as the word Messiah: so that in this respect our Jesus is exalted into his place in heaven."

Edwards, admittedly, is writing some at-face-value weird stuff. But if the root "annointed" is the same as the root for "Messiah," then the "annointed" Satan (pre-fallen) was a type of "Messiah." But definition. Of course, Satan's fallen, and is hell-bound. And of course, Jesus is God incarnate, our loving Savior, as well as annointed Messiah....

280 posted on 08/20/2003 11:18:09 AM PDT by Theo
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