Freeper Research Project: Enoch and Astronomy

8/27/03 | Various Freepers

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed. Enoch was the first to be raptured, i.e. not taste physical death:

And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him – Genesis 5:24

Thank you for your post!

[Syncro]

:>)

[Alamo-Girl]

Here’s a sampling of some of the information out there, please let me know if you would like more:

Enoch and 1 John

Enoch and Hebrews

These are from a “fringe” website that gives verse to verse comparisons:

Page 1

Page 2

[kuma]

I've read this book and yes the Astronomy portion really interested me. We have an amatuer astronomy kit now and I'm going to be using it in our homeschooling this year. I am definitely interested in taking a closer look at Enoch since it also seems that his Lunar and Solar calendars are right on. It's nice to run across someone with this interest also ^_^.

[Alamo-Girl]

For anyone interested, I just received by email this link to a website which analyzes the levels of heavens in Enoch's translation, archangels, orders, etc.

Mazzaroth

It has a heavy astrology bent but nevertheless gives some helpful tables and summaries.

[Alamo-Girl]

Wow! I'm so glad you posted and shared your interest and background in the subject. I look forward to any information you may have for the project and would love to read your views!

[jam137]

The other thing of course is that over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedence in Enoch and Enoch is quoted directly in Jude. So, to the New Testament - Enoch is authentic.

No, this does not mean that Enoch (the book) is authentic. It does indicate that many first century Jews were familiar with the book. It could also mean that Jude considers the one quote authentic. But, this is not even close to saying that the whole book (even in first century form) should be considered canonical.

I say this, though, because these words concern me:

Why is the authenticity of Enoch relevant to Christians today?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

Obviously we are in a time of unprecedented knowledge and travel, thus many have been curious whether the hidden text mentioned in Daniel has already been revealed to any extent.

Some have proposed that the Bible Code (Equidistant Letter Sequence) is the hidden text mentioned in Daniel. So far I believe the search has been limited to a simple matrix but there was some talk of looking for any patterns in a holographic. As I recall, Newton suspected there was a code in the Pentateuch.

Still others have mentioned the book of Enoch which was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethopia and further authenticated by copies found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls).

I am concerned that you're chasing after a brand of gnosticism instead of true christianity. The Bible certainly has many details which create curiousity in our minds (e.g., What does Paul mean by "baptism for the dead"? What exactly happened between Michael and the Devil, as touched on in Jude? Who were the "sons of God" in Genesis 6? What was Enoch's life like?), and many of the pseudopigraphal books dwell upon these obscurities.

The point of the Bible, however, is to testify of Jesus Christ and our salvation in him:

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

So, I suggest that you stop running after secret knowledge and Bible codes, instead sticking with the plain message of the Bible about Jesus and salvation.

[kuma]

I've already done up Lunar Calendars in a graphics program based on passages in the bible. When I read the book of Enoch his Lunar Calendar seemed to mirror those passages perfectly, although admittedly I need to research this in more depth to be sure. Haven't gotten around to it yet cause the bible calendar took me two months of steady work so I gotta gear up before I'm ready for another big project like this.

As far as the Solar Calendar is concerned we use the Gregorian (not Julian) Calendar. Julian missed the adjustments needed that Gregory made up for by making a leap year to add an extra day. Enoch however did not make the same mistake as Julian and includes this adjustment. I would like to eventually do up Lunar, Solar & overall Astronomy graphics for his book.

It's more than a passing interest and it's great to meet someone like-minded. Unfortunately as you pointed out many of the other people out there interested in this are "fringe". This book has been misused & abused for anything and everything such as Aryan race beliefs to astrology and now Ecumenicalism (all religions are the same). Someone out there always seems to have an agenda and rarely can they just enjoy something bigger than themselves. Something that has survived millenia to tell it's story and give us a glimpse of ourselves and what Jesus may have meant when he said "As in the days of Noah".

[editor-surveyor]

"One rule of dating used by modern scholars, is that if anything is prophesied which turns out to be correct, it must have been written after the event, because otherwise the author would really have to have been a prophet!"

Kind of hard to call anyone with an opinion like that a "scholar."

[editor-surveyor]

"...but I much prefer the printed versions in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha by Charlesworth - because it contains a lot commentary on the translation, history, etc"

Interesting point of view. My preferences run to the other pole: I prefer to read from a text that is devoid of (potentially erroneous) comments that often distract, and devalue a reading session.

[doxteve]

Ordinarily I'd bump by saying, "God be with you." Now I'll bump by saying that "God IS with you." Thanks.

[Sabertooth]

Fascinating thread, thanks for posting.

Graham Hancock has been delving into this type of archaeoastronomy for years. You might find some leads there (amongst some pretty interesting, though wild speculation, it must be admitted).

Another point in regard to your discussion of the anti-Hellenistic Essenes, and the inclusion in Enoch of astronomical theories attributed to the Greeks...

There are two frequent and very easily made errors in textual analyses of ancient manuscripts.

1. The confusion of the earliest known example of a manuscript or concept with the earliest possible example. In fact, the earliest known is the latest possible example, as earlier examples may have been (and quite likely, actually have been) lost to us, as that is how it usually goes with old things.

2. The idea that if manuscript A and manuscript B describe similar events, and A was produced prior to B, then B is therefore derived from A, and any differences are due to a corruption of A by B. This is an unfounded presumption against the possiblity of lost manuscripts C, D, E, etc., which might have been the sources for both A and B. Bad textual alanyses frequently ignore the possibility of literary missing links. Once such presumptions are disallowed, we see that questions as to the relative corruption of A and/or B from the original source remain unanswered.

[PatrickHenry]

... the Essenes at Qumran were evidently piously anti-Hellenistic, which is to say they strongly resisted the influence of Greece – so much so they went into the wilderness. The other two main sects of Jews after they returned from Babylon were Pharisees and Sadducees. So, in terms of influence on the 1 Enoch book of astronomy – if it were a fabrication – the possible influences would include Babylonia and to a lesser extent Greece.

It may be possible that although the Essenes resisted Hellenistic culture in general, which was far too worldly for many pious people, they may nevertheless have accepted Hellenistic science, including astronomy, geometry, etc. These would be unlikely to conflict with their scriptures or their way of life. So the Enoch text might have been no problem for them, even if Enoch actually did get his astronomy from the Greeks.

[Victoria Delsoul]

Hi Saber!!! Good post, thanks.

Did you have a good time? I guess you are tanned, rested, and ready. :-)

[Sabertooth]

I had a great time, thanks. It was nice to get away.

[Victoria Delsoul]

Well, at least this time wasn't as long as before. Lucky you that can afford it.

[editor-surveyor]

"even if Enoch actually did get his astronomy from the Greeks."

You do realize that Enoch lived 2000 years before there were any Greeks?

[PatrickHenry]

You do realize that Enoch lived 2000 years before there were any Greeks?

This is from Alamo-Girl's essay at the start of this thread:

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE. The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (see below).

[editor-surveyor]

Someone out there always seems to have an agenda and rarely can they just enjoy something bigger than themselves. Something that has survived millenia to tell it's story and give us a glimpse of ourselves and what Jesus may have meant when he said "As in the days of Noah".

In this case the 'agenda' is easily discerned; the book of Enoch is clear and specific on who and what the Nephilim were, and the modernists will not accept the very idea that the demons are the spirits of half human, half cherub beings. In fact, some try to deny the existance of demons at all.

[editor-surveyor]

Yes, I read that, but Enoch, and the events described are from two millenia prior.