Condi's Phony History

Slate ^ | 8/29/03 | Daniel Benjamin

[billbears]

No substance just insults. Good Chancey. This nation of independent and sovereign states has tried it the interventionist way for over 80 years and has yet to do anything except stave off an inevitable war for another 10-20 years. I guess Bush and Co. have decided to step it up and go for all war all the time. Is that it?

[Chancellor Palpatine]

The name of the country is "The United Stantes of America". One nation, not balkanized - a fact which saddens you, and leads you to continue that stupid and vaguely treasonous affectation of yours.

I realize that your ragtag collection of trailer park refugees playing at pretend army is the core of the Constimatooshin Party and desperate to return to the Articles of Confederation (or if you can't do that, maybe you can get back to times forgotten where blacks knew their place under that 1861 abortion), but that just isn't going to happen.

You really do need to change your nick to Fonda - you've pretty much hit all her Vietnam talking points, and you've accumulated some of the Sarandon-Robbins talking points for the Iraq thing.

[billbears]

The United Stantes of America

Don't think that's it, I thought it was the United States of America, not Amerucah, not America, not even the good ol' USA. You statists have had your way and this nation is unified even moreso than Hamilton would have wanted. America is the subject of a prepositional phrase not the name of the nation. The United StateS (I know you just hate that S don't you?).

And of course, all I can expect from you Chancey is just more name calling. Haven't addressed one issue yet. But you go ahead and bow whichever way you need to pay homage to Washington DC at the proper time of the day and keep your blinders on okay?

You're a statist of the worst sort, one that would sell their soul to maintain a government's line of bull, no matter what the government has done if the 'right' people are in charge. Conservatives used to make fun of people like that when Clinton was in charge. Now I see most of them weren't conservative, just partisan

[Burkeman1]

You could work for Hillary or help Bill write his memoirs. You don't think it is relevant to mention that a certain member of the allies murdered, raped, looted, and pillaged their way through Germany and thus- that might explain the attacks on them after the formal end of the war?

It was a lie and they know it.

[FreedomCalls]

It was a lie and they know it.

No, I believe the question was: "Were the Germans so fully pacified after the declared end of hostilities that they ceased attacks on the Allies or did those attacks continue afterwards." They did continue to attack afterwards. You want to shrink the argument down to: "Did German citizens continue to attack AMERICAN troops after the cease fire?" That is changing the argument to attempt to "catch" Rumsfeld and Rice in a lie -- a lie they did not commit.

[Burkeman1]

There is no comparison of the actions of American troops in Germany to that of Russian. There is no comparison of Iraq to Germany. Thus the analogy is a lie. Stop embarassing yourself.

[FreedomCalls]

There is no comparison of the actions of American troops in Germany to that of Russian.

You MUST be a DU provacateur. The standard leftist response to an argument they are losing is to alter the subject into something else. Here you are doing just that -- again. No one has "compared the actions of American troops in Germany to that of Russian." The statement made by Rusmfeld and Rice was that attacks on ALLIED troops continued in Germany after the formal cease fire. The simple fact that "allied troops" included Russian troops in no way implies their behavior was similar. The debated question has been whether that is a fact or a deliberate lie. It remains a fact even when you try to change the subject. It is the leftists like you who are putting forth the idea that a radical militant political party will simply put down their weapons and sing "Kumbaya" when the President declares an end to hostilities. Given that the only war you will accept as legitimate is WWII, Rice and Rumsfeld used that and pointed out that in that war all attacks did not end with all Germans turned into little cherubim in one fell swoop by the wave of some magic wand. Hostile elements continued to attack ALLIED troops after the summer of 1945. Someone dredged up some statistics to indicate that attacks on AMERICAN troops were small in number. But that is a different argument than what Rumsfeld and Rice said. You cannot change the facts by changing the subject.

[Image above] Democrat-Marxists mental image of German soldiers on May 7th, 1945.

[Image above] Democrat-Marxists mental image of those same German soldiers on May 9th, 1945.

[secretagent]

...significant attacks on Russian troops in the Berlin area after the declared end of the war.

Give us an idea of how many casualties, and your source, please.

[FreedomCalls]

your source, please

The Honorable Donald Rumsfeld in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in San Antonio, Texas, on Aug. 25 2003.

[sarasmom]

You want to hear something funny?
I was "occupying" Germany in the early 1980s.
Forgive my laziness, but google yourself to find the exact date Ramstein AB was subject to a terrorist bomb attack on USAFE HQ.
I forget who they pinned that little pointless escapade upon, Baader Meinholf, Red Brigade, or a similar group.
I can remember the incredible lifestyle of never knowing when some shitty little terrorist activity would cut short my personal contribution to winning the "peacefull" Cold War.
To give credit where credit is due,the German civilian pollicei were at one time considered on par with the Israeli Mossad regarding anti-terrorist forces and investigations.
Terrorism was by no means condoned by the majority of the population, young or old, in Germany.
It was, however, fairly pervasive in the society of Europeans in the 1980s. It has never actually disappeared from "the wars".
I think it was primarily Italy that endured the spate of "kneecapping" of children at schools for the "cause", but I may have them confused with Spain.It has been many years, and I just lived through it, I am not a "certified historian".
It is a clear memory of mine to having frantically called three familiy members to declare that we were alive, and not injured, only to be informed they had no idea what I was talking about.
It is "funny" now.
It was very disconcerting at the time.
I can attest to the fact that history, even recent history, is "fungible".
I find that infuriating, and frightening.
But WTH, I was only there, and living it.What possible contribution can my voice add to the edited script?LOL!

[secretagent]

Thanks for the tip on his speech to the VFW, but Rumsfeld doesn't appear to mention numbers of (1) Russian casualties or (2) significant post-war attacks on Russians. In fact, he doesn't mention the Russians specifically at all:

(...snip) Indeed I suspect that some of you in this hall today, especially those who served in Germany during World War II or in the period immediately after the war were not surprised that some Ba’athists have kept on fighting. You will recall that some dead-enders fought on during and after the defeat of the Nazi regime in Germany.

Here’s how war correspondent Martha Gellhorn described conditions in Germany after the arrival of allied forces. She said, “At night the Germans take pot shots at Americans or string wires across the roads or they burn the houses of Germans who accept posts in the military government or they booby trap ammunition dumps or motorcycles or anything that is likely to be touched.”

One group of those dead-enders was known as “werewolves.” They and other Nazi regime remnants targeted allied soldiers and they targeted Germans who cooperated with the allied forces. Mayors were assassinated including the American appointed Mayor of Achen, the first major German city to be liberated. Children as young as ten were used as snipers, radio broadcast and leaflets warned Germans not to collaborate with the Allies. They plotted sabotage of factories, power plants, rail lines. They blew up police stations and government building, and they destroyed stocks of art and antiques that were stored by the Berlin museum. Does this sound familiar?

Like the death squads in Iraq they failed to stop the liberation of Germany and they failed in rousing the population of Germany to widespread revolt. Indeed as one historian put it, “Werewolf intimidation only increased public hatred of the Nazi regime…German civilians sometimes led allied troops straight to where werewolf supply caches.” The vast majority of the German people like the vast majority of the Iraqi people were glad to be rid of the tyrannical dictatorship.

Today the Nazi dead-enders are largely forgotten, cast to the sidelines of history because they comprised a failed resistance and managed to kill our Allied forces in a war that saw millions fight and die. (...snip)

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/2003/sp20030825-secdef0403.html

[secretagent]

Thanks for your contribution!

I can attest to the fact that history, even recent history, is "fungible".

This intrigues me - please expand.

[Burkeman1]

I will explain this to you like you are a three year old. Condi and Rummy compared the "allied" occupation of Germany to Iraq. They failed to mention that the Russians did their thing and we and the British and (choke) the French did our things in our zones of occupations. The Western allies experienced almost no resistence during our occupaption while the Russians claim they did (and that is a dubious claim since most civilains fled to our lines or tried to). The Russians acted just as bad or even worse than the Germans did in Russia when they came into Germany. Any resistence to them (a 14 year old boy seing his mother being ganged raped by 10 Russians) was only natural.

That was not the case in the Western Zones of occupation and is not the case in Iraq today. Our troops don't rape and murder as a matter of policy. Condi and Rummy are liars.

[Burkeman1]

Oh- and PS- were the resitance movements in Poland, Ukraine, Rumania, Hungary, against the Soviets all "werewolf" Nazi movements in the years after the war? The Kremlin cabal of Communists was still fighting Ukranian "bandit" groups into the early 50's.

[Mike Darancette]

IMHO: The worst Werewolves are in this country.

[FreedomCalls]

Rumsfeld doesn't appear to mention numbers of (1) Russian casualties or (2) significant post-war attacks on Russians. In fact, he doesn't mention the Russians specifically at all

He specifically said "They and other Nazi regime remnants targeted allied soldiers" as you quoteed him. The reporter for the article which is the subject of this thread, said that there were very few American soldier casualties after the end of hostilities. The whole point of my argument is that that is not enough -- to refute Rumsfeld you would need to also show that French, British, and even Russian soldiers suffered few casualties after the end of hostilities to call Rumsfeld a lier, since he specifically said "allied" soldiers.

[RightWhale]

there's no parallel between the de-Nazification of Germany and the de-Ba'athification of Iraq.

True, no doubt. Nazi-ism ended with the death of Hitler. There were no Nazis to be found after that. The joke was that all the Nazis were killed in the war. The Ba'ath Party is not so dependent on a single personality as Saddam, and so will probably live on, even if out of power and out of favor.

[FreedomCalls]

Nazi-ism ended with the death of Hitler.

The death of Hitler was not certain until well into the 60's. Stalin released no details and there were serious rumors of his successful escape to Argentina for at least 10 years or more.

[RightWhale]

death of Hitler was not certain

No, but everybody knew.

[FreedomCalls]

No, but everybody knew [of Hitler's death].

It's similar to Osama Bin Laden's death. Most everybody is sure he died at Tora Bora, but there is no confirmation. Absent that confirmation, some of his supporters think he may still be alive -- faked recordings continue to be aired in the media even. Higher-ups in the government occasionally claim he is still alive, cross-eyed CIA "experts" claim the tapes are real, and the spector of his being alive continues to haunt our foreign anti-terrorism efforts.

Hilter's demise was much like the rumors of JFK being killed by a conspiracy plot. Everyone knows Oswald acted alone, but a substantial numer of people are delusional enough to think otherwise. There were Germans for whom the acceptance of Hitler's death was not final. Not many, but they existed. Some Jihadists think Osama is still alive.