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Did the Fourteenth Amendment make the American People Citizens of the Federal Government?
Sierra Times ^ | Robert Greenslade

Posted on 09/19/2003 10:05:29 AM PDT by Sir Gawain

Did the Fourteenth Amendment make the American People Citizens of the Federal Government?
By Robert Greenslade

In recent years, it has been asserted that the Fourteenth Amendment diluted or abrogated State citizenship by making the American people citizens of the federal government. Section 1 of the Amendment states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

When the Constitution was adopted, it did not contain a formal definition of citizenship. This omission was not a defect as some have asserted. The system of government established by the Constitution did not warrant a definition of the term.

Contrary to the misrepresentations emanating from friends of big government, the Constitution did not create a national system of government or consolidate the States or their people into a single nation. The Constitution was simply a continuation of the federal system of government established by the Articles of Confederation. Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs. All powers involving to the life, liberty, property, and happiness of the American people, would remain with the States.

Since the federal government was functioning as the agent of the States and representing their collective interests, that government did not have any individual citizens of its own. The only class of citizen found within the borders of the United States when the Constitution was adopted, excluding foreigners, were Citizens of the individual States.

Even though the Constitution does not contain a formal definition of citizenship, it does make reference to three classes of citizen [excluding the reference to foreign citizens]. They are: “Citizens of each State,” “Citizens in the several States,” and “Citizens of the United States.” All three refer to State citizenship because the Constitution did not make the people of the several States citizens of a single government or nation.

Under the Constitution, the term “Citizen of each State” is synonymous with the term Citizen of one of the States united under the constitutional compact between the States. The term “Citizens in the several States” simply refers to State citizens in the different States. They were also known as “Citizens of the United States” or Citizens of the States united under the constitutional compact because their State was one of the United States and a Citizen of one State could change their citizenship and become a Citizen of any of the other United States [See Article IV, Section 1, Clause1]. These are the only classes of citizenship recognized under the Constitution, as contemplated by the Founders.

Citizenship could be acquired one of two ways. First, by birth, or second, by being naturalized pursuant to the power of Congress under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution.

After the requisite number of States ratified the Constitution, the States’ government began acquiring territories west of the existing boundaries of the United States. Since these areas were outside the jurisdiction of the individual States, the government of the United States had exclusive jurisdiction over all persons in these territories. Any person born in these areas to parents who were not Citizens of an individual State could not claim State citizenship by birth or naturalization. Since these individuals were born under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government of the United States, that government claimed the authority to make them statutory citizens of the United States [citizens by statute]. However, that government could not, by statute or decree, make these individuals Citizens of a State.

This same rule applied in the District of Columbia. Pursuant to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, the District is under the exclusive authority of the government of the United States because it is not a State. Persons born in the District who could not claim State citizenship were classified as citizens of the United States because they were under the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the government of the United States.

The Fourteenth Amendment was not proposed because the States’ agent woke-up one morning and decided to change the nature of the Constitution and make the American people citizens of the federal government. The classes of citizenship referenced above only applied to free white persons. The Negro, according to a 1857 decision by the United States Supreme Court, “was ineligible to attain United States citizenship, either from a State or by virtue of birth in the United States even as a free man…”

Following the Civil War, the Thirteenth Amendment constitutionally freed the African slaves from bondage. However, Congress was still faced with a problem. Even though the Southern States lost the War, their State Constitutions still did not recognize blacks as persons entitled to citizenship. Not only did Congress lack the constitutional authority to alter these State Constitutions, but it also lacked the authority to confer state citizenship on these individuals. Absent citizenship, the Southern States viewed the newly freed slaves residing in their territory as aliens and began enacting laws that severely restricted the personal freedoms of persons who were not citizens of their State. These laws were commonly known as “Black Codes” because the target of these repressive laws were the newly freed slaves.

Since the Southern States had not yet been restored to their pre-war status as States of the Union, they were treated as occupied territories that fell under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government of the United States just like the territories. This enabled Congress to enact legislation that would block enforcement of the “Black Codes.” One of these pieces of legislation was the Civil Rights Act of 1866. The Act stated in part:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States…

From a constitutional standpoint, there was a problem with this part of the Act. Congress lacked the general statutory authority to declare persons to be Citizens of the United States. The only way to remedy this was through a constitutional amendment. Fearing that the United States Supreme Court might declare the Civil Rights Act unconstitutional, on various grounds, Congress proposed the 14th Amendment.

As a result of the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments, the newly freed slaves went from bondage to Citizens of the United States [Citizens of the States united in the compact or Union between the States] and Citizens of the State [Citizens of one of the United States] where they were residing at the time the Amendment went into effect. United States citizenship simply meant the newly freed slaves could exercise citizenship in any one of the United States. By giving the newly freed slaves the ability to acquire and exercise citizenship in any one of the United States, none of the United States could have prevented the newly freed slaves from changing their State citizenship and acquiring new citizenship in their State.

This brings us to the threshold question. Did the Fourteenth Amendment change the nature of citizenship and make the American people citizens of the federal government? The so-called citizenship clause of the Amendment states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Nowhere in this provision does it grant or confer citizenship on any class of person or subject anyone to the jurisdiction of the federal government. It only defined citizenship, as it had been commonly understood since the adoption of the Constitution, and spells out the method by which it can be obtained.

The assertion that this provision made the American people citizens of the federal government can be reduced, for purposes of this article, to the phrase? “United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Unless these words refer to the federal government, this assertion fails on its face.

The Constitution, as stated previously, is a compact or contract between the several States. Under contract law, a word or phrase has the same meaning throughout the contract, or any amendment of the contract, unless the word or phrase is specifically re-defined for another part of the contract. The phrase “United States,” as used in the Constitution, refers to the individual States in their united or collective capacity. It does not refer to a single government or nation because the Constitution only established a “partial” Union between the several States. In other words, the States are only partially united under the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson expressed this principle in 1800 when he wrote: “[t]he true theory of our Constitution is surely the wisest and best, that the states are independent as to everything within themselves, and united as to everything respecting foreign affairs.”

One does not have to look any further than the Thirteenth Amendment to prove that the words “United States” refer to the States. Section 1 of the Amendment states:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. [Emphasis added]

If the words “United States” referred to the federal government, then the provision could not have used the term “their” to describe the jurisdictional provision of the Amendment. It would have stated: “subject to its jurisdiction.

As stated above, a word or phrase has to have the same meaning throughout the contract unless it is specifically re-defined for another part of the contract. If the words “United States” refer to the States in the Thirteenth Amendment and the federal government in the Fourteenth Amendment, then the same words in back to back Amendments have two completely different meanings. This would be an absurdity.

If the phrase “United States,” as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, refers to the federal government, then the two phrases would be interchangeable and have the same meaning throughout the Amendment. By replacing the words “United States” with “federal government,” the Amendment reads as follows:

All persons born or naturalized in the federal government, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the federal government and of the State wherein they reside.

Such a reading would be lunacy because it is impossible for persons to be “born or naturalized in the federal government.” The phrase “United States,” as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, has to refer to the States. Senator Howard of Michigan, who authored the citizenship provision of the Fourteenth Amendment, made this fact crystal clear when he stated that the jurisdictional provision enumerated in the Amendment refers to the States, not the federal government.

This amendment [the Citizenship Clause] which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is…a citizen of the United States. [Emphasis added]

As stated by Senator Howard, this provision changed nothing. If it was merely declaratory of “the law of the land already,” then the Fourteenth Amendment could not have made the people of the several States citizens of the federal government because they were not citizens of that government before the adoption of the Amendment.

The underlying reason the American people cannot be citizens of the federal government was expressed by John C. Calhoun in his writings on the Constitution:

It is federal, because it is the government of States united in a political union, in contradistinction to a government of individuals, that is, by what is usually called, a social compact. To express it more concisely, it is federal and not national because it is the government of a community of States, and not the government of a single State or Nation.

Since the federal government is, by definition and intent, the common government of the several States, not the general government of the American people, the Fourteenth Amendment could not have made them citizens of the States’ government.

Note: it has been asserted that the Amendment was never properly ratified. For an interesting article on this subject, click here..


Robert Greenslade focuses his writing on issues surrounding the federal government and the Constitution. He believes politicians at the federal level, through ignorance or design, are systematically dismantling the Constitution in an effort to expand their power and consolidate control over the American people. He has dedicated himself to resurrecting the true intent of the Constitution in the hope that the information will contribute, in some small way, to restoring the system of limited government established by the Constitution.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: 14th; 14thamendment; citisenship; citizenship; constitution; fourteenthamendment; immigrantlist
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1 posted on 09/19/2003 10:05:29 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: AAABEST; Abundy; Uncle Bill; billbears; Victoria Delsoul; Fiddlstix; fporretto; Free Vulcan; ...
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2 posted on 09/19/2003 10:05:49 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Sir Gawain
Considering how soon this post-dated The Civil War, this was a considered statement. Think of it as a way to still allow a state to sucede, but refuse to let any of it's population go with it. In the post-bellum aftermath, noone was terribly keen on state's rights anymore.
3 posted on 09/19/2003 10:09:18 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (There are two certainties. Death and Texas.)
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To: Sir Gawain
Any person born in [the territories] to parents who were not Citizens of an individual State could not claim State citizenship by birth or naturalization. Since these individuals were born under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government of the United States, that government claimed the authority to make them statutory citizens of the United States (citizens by statute). However, that government could not, by statute or decree, make these individuals Citizens of a State.

Is there an actual reference for this, or is it just the author's conclusion? Because it seems highly incongruous to me that Congress can make state citizens out of foreigners, via the naturalization clause, but can't make state citizens out of people within its own territories.

4 posted on 09/19/2003 10:15:42 AM PDT by inquest (World socialism: the ultimate multinational corporation)
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To: Sir Gawain; stainlessbanner; 4ConservativeJustices; GOPcapitalist; stand watie; aomagrat; ...
Bump from a citizen of the state of North Carolina
5 posted on 09/19/2003 10:21:24 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: inquest
sovereign citizen bump for later more detailed reading
6 posted on 09/19/2003 10:30:15 AM PDT by soundbits
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To: gubamyster
ping
7 posted on 09/19/2003 10:31:41 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Sir Gawain
. . . .The object of the [Fourteenth] amendment was undoubtedly to enforce the absolute equality of the two races before the law.... Justice Henry Brown - Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896)

National Constitution Center: Interactive Constitution Although the Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery, it did not resolve the legal status of former slaves under federal and state law. After the Civil War, many southern states passed "Black Codes" designed to severely restrict the lives of newly freed slaves and keep them in virtual slavery. Through the Fourteenth Amendment, former slaves were granted citizenship and promised "equal protection of the laws." This protection from unreasonable discrimination eventually extended to other groups as well. The Fourteenth Amendment became the basis for claims of legal equality.

Because the Fourteenth Amendment specifically addressed the states, it drastically expanded the reach of the U.S. Constitution. The Supreme Court used the amendment to apply most provisions in the Bill of Rights to state governments. As a result, the Fourteenth Amendment is cited more often in modern litigation than any other. In fact, many constitutional scholars believe that, through its wide scope and promise of equality, the Fourteenth Amendment created a new Constitution.

Failed Ratification of Fourteenth Amendment Congressional Record -- House, June 13, 1967, page 15641, H7161

THE 14TH AMENDMENT - EQUAL PROTECTION LAW OR TOOL OF USURPATION

(Mr. Rarick (at the request of Mr. Pryor) was granted permission to extend his remarks at this point in the Record and to include extraneous matter.)

Mr. RARICK. Mr. Speaker, arrogantly ignoring clear-cut expressions in the Constitution of the United States, the declared intent of its drafters notwithstanding, our unelected Federal judges read out prohibitions of the Constitution of the United States by adopting the fuzzy haze of the 14th Amendment to legislate their personal ideas, prejudices, theories, guilt complexes, aims, and whims. Through the cooperation of intellectual educators, we have subjected ourselves to accept destructive use and meaning of words and phrases. We blindly accept new meanings and changed values to alter our traditional thoughts.

We have tolerantly permitted the habitual misuse of words to serve as a vehicle to abandon our foundations and goals. Thus, the present use and expansion of the 14th Amendment is a sham -- {H7162} serving as a crutch and hoodwink to precipitate a quasi-legal approach for overthrow of the tender balances and protections of limitation found in the Constitution.

Government by Judiciary: The Transformation of the Fourteenth Amendment Second Edition. By Raoul Berger

Berger famously argued that the great 1954 school desegregation case of Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided because the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not intend its equal protection clause to require racial integration of the public schools. According to Berger, the sole purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868, was to reinforce the federal Civil Rights Act of 1866 and protect it against repeal by a future Congress.

8 posted on 09/19/2003 10:37:38 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
ping
9 posted on 09/19/2003 10:42:27 AM PDT by gubamyster
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
All very nice, but the simple fact is that the Constitution, as originally written, put upon Congress the onus of ensuring a Republican form of government in the individual states. Now, as long as the individual states kept their diapers clean, there was no problem. Sadly though, after the Civil War, the southern states allowed for the KKK's reign of terror, and widespread ethnic cleansing as well as activities that can only be described in modern terms as genocidal. On top of this, where these horrible things happened, it was the states that they happened in who chose to deny justice, both through their legislatures and their courts. It was those states who are to blame for the original sin, and trying to pass the blame eslewhere is to avoid being able to adequately deal with the modern problem.

It is also to be noted that it the SCOTUS has a long history of aggravating those issues, with a truly dramatic history of justices who were not only extremely racist to the point of radicalism, but also today a list of judges who are just as radical in their inclination to treat the citizens of the nation not as citizens, but as just 'we-uns working in the fields for massa.' True, racism is fading, but the intolerance and high handed egotism that bred it in the first place are still rampant in the court system.

The most recent outlandish nonsense was the handling of the Florida election, which was clearly a matter that belonged to the Congress to settle. The ruling from SCOTUS in that case is incredibly bizarre, becuase, in effect, it ruled all national elections in the country, past and present to be invalid, since the conditions that the court accepted as validation for their ruling exist in every state in the Union. Clearly, the courts are out of hand, and while the 14th amendment should never have necessary, in fact it was, and the forces that pulled the courts into the matter were not the overstepping of the court, but the recalcitrance, prejudice, stupidity and incompetence of state governments.

Now, sadly, it has become the courts who are off in never never land, but one thing we know for sure. America is no longer a nation where every vote counts or is counted. Now, everyone take a moment of silence to worship SCOTUS.....

10 posted on 09/19/2003 10:54:04 AM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
An important point made here and linked by you is that the ratification of the 14th is a fraud. Joe Fallon also wrote a rather succinct article on this. The only conclusion that anyone can make about it, after reading the history, is that it was extorted from many of the 'states' (in quotes, because they had temporarily ceased to exist when the 14th was rammed through).

Funny, but you never hear the ACLU or anyone else mentioning that little fact prior to invoking it.

11 posted on 09/19/2003 11:00:40 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator
Whatever uncertainty there might be about whether the First Amendment is gathered into the scope of judicial review, there is none whatever about the proposition that, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, it was intended to restrain only the national government and not the states or their subdivisions. And, among scholars who do not hold a prior commitment to judicial activism, a second proposition is virtually settled as well: that the Fourteenth Amendment changed nothing about that fact.(see footnote 134)

Of course, on the Court the debate has gone all the other way, so that Justices Scalia and Thomas no less than their more liberal brethren act unquestioningly on the basis of twentieth-century precedents that declared that much of the Bill of Rights is selectively ''absorbed'' or ''incorporated'' into the terms of the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. But these precedents are worse than doubtful: they represent a plain usurpation of power by the Court, and they ought not to be respected, on or off the Court, by anyone who regards the Constitution as superior to ''constitutional law.''

The Fourteenth Amendment is certainly the major ''culprit'' if we are concerned about reining in the Court. By ''incorporation'' of the Bill of Rights, and by creating under the doctrine of ''substantive due process'' rights which are contained nowhere in the Constitution at all, the Court has used the Fourteenth Amendment to nationalize some of the most important policy questions that the Constitution properly leaves to the states.

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MATTHEW J. FRANCK, CHAIRMAN AND ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, RADFORD UNIVERSITY Congress, the Court, and the Constitution

 

 

12 posted on 09/19/2003 11:08:24 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Held_to_Ransom

Now, as long as the individual states kept their diapers clean, there was no problem. Sadly though, after the Civil War, the southern states allowed for the KKK's reign of terror, and widespread ethnic cleansing as well as activities that can only be described in modern terms as genocidal.

PUT THAT INTO PERSPECTIVE:

Between 1882 and 1968, 3,446 Blacks were lynched in the U.S. That number is surpassed in less than 3 days by abortion.

1,452 African-American children are killed each day by the heinous act of abortion.

3 out of 5 pregnant African-American women will abort their child.

Since 1973 there has been over 13 million Black children killed and their precious mothers victimized by the U.S. abortion industry.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson once said:
"That is why the Constitution called us three-fifths human and then whites further dehumanized us by calling us 'niggers'. It was part of the dehumanizing process. The first step was to distort the image of us as human beings in order to justify that which they wanted to do and not even feel like they had done anything wrong. Those advocates of taking life prior to birth do not call it killing or murder, they call it abortion. They further never talk about aborting a baby because that would imply something human. Rather they talk about aborting the fetus. Fetus sounds less than human and therefore abortion can be justified".

With 1/3 of all abortions performed on Black women, the abortion industry has received over 4,000,000,000 (yes, billion) dollars from the Black community. BlackGenocide.org | LEARN Northeast

13 posted on 09/19/2003 11:14:56 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Sir Gawain
The War Between the States was only peripherally about slavery, no matter what anyone says. The war was fought to decide if we live in a nation with a centralized National government under which the States exist as mere subdivisions of the whole or if we live in a nation with a limited Federal government under which the States are sovereign and only delegate some power to the Federal government and reserve all other powers for themselves and their citizens. With the outcome of the war, the 14th Amendment, and precedent which has been set ever since, it is obvious that the side of the centralized National government is the victor and that annoying things like the 10th Amendment and such should just be ignored as they are irrelevant.

And it is all so very unfortunate

14 posted on 09/19/2003 11:16:24 AM PDT by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
So Scalia accepts the notion of "substantive due process"? I thought he rejected that doctrine.
15 posted on 09/19/2003 11:23:11 AM PDT by inquest (World socialism: the ultimate multinational corporation)
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To: inquest
bttt
16 posted on 09/19/2003 11:27:10 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: inquest
Thus, the nature of active review in equal protection jurisprudence remains in flux, subject to shifting majorities and varying degrees of concern about judicial activism and judicial restraint. But the cases, more fully reviewed hereafter, clearly indicate that a sliding scale of review is a fact of the Court's cases, however much its doctrinal explanation lags behind. FindLaw: Cases and Codes: US Constitution
17 posted on 09/19/2003 11:29:38 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: inquest
For an unanswered refutation of incorporation see - Fairman, Fourteenth Amendment Incorporate Bill of Rights? 2 Stan.L.Rev. 5 (1949).
18 posted on 09/19/2003 11:32:59 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Sir Gawain

Contrary to the misrepresentations emanating from friends of big government, the Constitution did not create a national system of government or consolidate the States or their people into a single nation.

 

According to Madison in making his argument for the ratification of the Constitution to the American people it did.

James Madison, Federalist #39:

 

The Constitution was simply a continuation of the federal system of government established by the Articles of Confederation.

Hardly!!

James Madison, Federalist #45:

James Madison, Elliots Debates Vol 3 p128:

Hamilton, Federalist #34:

 


 

Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs.

False Premises makes for False Conclusions.

19 posted on 09/19/2003 11:40:23 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
LOL - It's the FEDERALIST, not NATIONALISTS Papers.
20 posted on 09/19/2003 11:42:58 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
WIthout question, and this is just an extension of the racism that has long been inherent in SCOTUS. Roe was not the actual name of a woman, but an illusion to a fish egg, or perhaps, even an association with the conspicous consumption that is commonly associated with caviar.

But it is to be remembered that it is not only Americans of African heritage who are the victims of this process, just as it was not only Americans of African heritage who were victims of the slave labor system.

Still, remember that even Plessy Ferguson had a positive element drawn from the recalcitrance of those not willing to accept the founding principles. While it did hereld the advent of more segregation, it also opened the door to tossing out the corrupt politicians and manipulators who had for so long made the implementation of effective railroad networks in the south an impossibility.

While at first glance many would consider this irrelevant, it's not, because it provided the rock to stand upon for the court from which it levered the moon, so to speak. We saw the same process at work in Roe, and it won't be until someone figures out how to reverse the matter that we put will be able to put the courts in their proper place and take those few white tower elitists out of the position they have of dictating social change as they see fit, instead of as the people see fit.

The nation needs to have it's own house in order so that it can clean house in the courts. There is no law they can pass to deny you the right to be a Christian, or to behave like one, but it's hard to see that very many understand this today.

21 posted on 09/19/2003 11:45:49 AM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
Bigger LOL, "FEDERALIST" was the name of the Paper the arguments were published in. Not the stand of the proponents of the Constitution.

Even greater LOL is reserved for the anti-Constitutionalists who named their Papers the Anit-Federalist while supporting the concept of States being taxed through the artifice of "Quotas" by a Federal</b Government under the Articles of Confederation.

22 posted on 09/19/2003 11:49:14 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: inquest
Citizenship could be acquired one of two ways. First, by birth, or second, by being naturalized pursuant to the power of Congress under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution.

After the requisite number of States ratified the Constitution, the States' government began acquiring territories west of the existing boundaries of the United States. Since these areas were outside the jurisdiction of the individual States, the government of the United States had exclusive jurisdiction over all persons in these territories. Any person born in these areas to parents who were not Citizens of an individual State could not claim State citizenship by birth or naturalization. Since these individuals were born under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government of the United States, that government claimed the authority to make them statutory citizens of the United States [citizens by statute].


However, that government could not, by statute or decree, make these individuals Citizens of a State.


This same rule applied in the District of Columbia. Pursuant to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, the District is under the exclusive authority of the government of the United States because it is not a State. Persons born in the District who could not claim State citizenship were classified as citizens of the United States because they were under the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the government of the United States.
-article-


Is there an actual reference for this, or is it just the author's conclusion? Because it seems highly incongruous to me that Congress can make state citizens out of foreigners, via the naturalization clause, but can't make state citizens out of people within its own territories.
-inquest-


State citizenship in the USA is a moot point.
-- Art. IV Sec. 2 makes clear that any citizen has the same privileges/immunities as another, wherever born.


The author is beating a dead horse in yet another idiotic attempt to somehow discredit the 14th.
23 posted on 09/19/2003 11:49:29 AM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
One of the references has a good statement (from Rep. Ron Lewis): " But, you know, I wonder if you infused in that if the Court can define its own powers by altering the meaning of the Constitution. Where does its power end? "

This was in response to Justice Kennedy's analysis that the Congress did not have the right to change the meaning of a portion of the Constitution. Which is to say, that the pot would be calling the kettle black. It's clearly far easier for the judiciary to change the meaning of the Constitution on a whim than it is for the Congress + the Senate + the President.

And another good one is:"by anyone who regards the Constitution as superior to ''constitutional law."

Undoubtedly, getting rid of the 14th by any means possible is Constitutionally advantageous. But...I'm new to the arguments against Incorporation, and while I can see where they arise, and the abuse of things like the Commerce Clause to foment Incorporation, I wonder about the history of such rights in the States that the BOR asserts that Congress cannot abridge. Such as, Second Amendment rights. My assumption is that State consitutions would have similar guarantees, and it would be incumbent on the individual to decide for themselves whether he was comfortable in such a state, and if not, to move to one where he is, or to agitate for change to his state's Constitution.

Any comments on that?

24 posted on 09/19/2003 11:56:12 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Sir Gawain
Bump for later.
25 posted on 09/19/2003 11:58:01 AM PDT by StriperSniper (The slippery slope is getting steeper.)
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To: Sir Gawain
Improper question, as would be expected considering the source, since there never were any citizens of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Citizenship was always determined by the federal government but they were citizens of the United States. States could never grant citizenship it was only available through the federal government.

So the answer to the improper question is "NO."
26 posted on 09/19/2003 12:07:41 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: Spiff
The war was fought to decide if we live in a nation with a centralized National government under which the States exist as mere subdivisions of the whole

or if we live in a nation with a limited Federal government under which the States are sovereign and only delegate some power to the Federal government and reserve all other powers for themselves and their citizens.


With the outcome of the war, the 14th Amendment, and precedent which has been set ever since, it is obvious that the side of the centralized National government is the victor and that annoying things like the 10th Amendment and such should just be ignored as they are irrelevant.
-spiff-



Not so. -- Neither fed nor state governments are 'sovereign'.

The tenth amendments words are clear.

Some powers are delegated to the feds, some to the states, but all are reserved to the people.
--- And all such delegated powers are subject to amendment by the people.

We the people, in effect, retain all such powers/rights, as they are inalienable. -- Liberties cannot be amended away.
-- We are sovereign individuals, and our governments are not 'sovereign' over us.

27 posted on 09/19/2003 12:15:30 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: tpaine
Some powers are delegated to the feds, some to the states, but all are reserved to the people. --- And all such delegated powers are subject to amendment by the people. We the people, in effect, retain all such powers/rights, as they are inalienable. -- Liberties cannot be amended away. -- We are sovereign individuals, and our governments are not 'sovereign' over us.

You know what I meant. No, the state government is not sovereign over us. However, the people who formed the state goverment are sovereign over the area within the boundaries of the state and the National government is not.

28 posted on 09/19/2003 12:19:10 PM PDT by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: Held_to_Ransom
State legislatures determine how presidential electors are selected NOT state Supreme Courts and NOT Congress. That is where Florida went off the rails by getting its SC involved where it had no jurisdiction. The USSC DID have jurisdiction over a constitutional question. It acted correctly in throwing out the FSC's meddling.
29 posted on 09/19/2003 12:21:55 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: Spiff
The War Between the States was only peripherally about slavery, no matter what anyone says.

"No matter what anyone says" makes it sound like the causes of the war are more a matter of faith or will or what people need to believe, not about facts or reason or things we can rationally resolve.

People today can say that slavery was "only peripherally" involved because it's no longer a live issue. Slavery was very much alive and heatedly argued in the 1850s and 1860s. After the war, when it was no longer possible to argue for slavery, ex-confederates backpedalled and emphasised other issues.

Was slavery the only thing on everyone's mind in 1860? No, though it dwarfed other political issues. Was it the only reason men enlisted to fight? No. They signed up for other reasons, but war wouldn't have come without the controversy over slavery. We can't understand what happened without understanding and recognizing the significance of slavery. More here.

30 posted on 09/19/2003 12:42:02 PM PDT by x ("What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property" Robert M.T. Hunter Senator from Virginia)
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To: Regulator; yall
Undoubtedly, getting rid of the 14th by any means possible is Constitutionally advantageous.
But...I'm new to the arguments against Incorporation, and while I can see where they arise, and the abuse of things like the Commerce Clause to foment Incorporation, I wonder about the history of such rights in the States that the BOR asserts that Congress cannot abridge.

Such as, Second Amendment rights.
My assumption is that State consitutions would have similar guarantees, and it would be incumbent on the individual to decide for themselves whether he was comfortable in such a state, and if not, to move to one where he is, or to agitate for change to his state's Constitution.
Any comments on that?
24 -regulator-

You assume wrong. -- CA has no written state constitutional RKBA's.
The states rights movement insists that this oversight gives CA the power to prohibit guns.
The movement is crazy, to put it nicely.

I have no obligation to move elsewhere to exercise my inalienable right to bear arms.
I moved to CA in '58, before the majority here infringed upon my rights, violations I fought through political action. I continue to support the fight thru legal recourse.

If the USSC appeal fails, we will take our fight to increasing levels of civil disobedience. -- Unintended consequenses may arise.

Surprisingly, a lot of socalled FR 'conservatives' are against such constitutional action..
-- Are you? - Yall?
31 posted on 09/19/2003 12:44:04 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: Spiff
See #31..

Where do you stand on CA's supposed 'right' to ignore our US Constitutions BOR's ?
32 posted on 09/19/2003 12:51:27 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: tpaine
Where do you stand on CA's supposed 'right' to ignore our US Constitutions BOR's ?

You and I have had this argument before. The Constitution created and empowered a limited Federal government. The BOR provided further express limitations on that Federal government. When amendments in the BORs says "Congress shall make no law" that becomes obvious.

If not, then the Constitution formed a national government and the states are simply subdivisions of the whole. But, you and I both know that is not what was intended.

33 posted on 09/19/2003 1:04:24 PM PDT by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
The USSC DID have jurisdiction over a constitutional question. It acted correctly in throwing out the FSC's meddling.

But the matter was not settled in Congress, was it? More importantly, the election process in Florida proved itself to be insufficient except by fudging the end result. There is no way to ever know who won by a count, because the state could not provide an accurate account to save it's life. None exists, and none ever will. That's a sham and a disgrace.

The election results in Florida should have been discarded, and the matter settled on that basis. If FLoridians feel disenfranchised by that, it only represents the same state they are in now, and they only have themselves and their government to blame.

The embarrassment with SCOTUS is that it did not recognize the key issue in the case, which was that the government of Florida had a responsibility that it abrogated, and that it should have been held responsible for. NO one cared enough, and that's merely symptomatic of the ills of the country these days. However, it's also not exactly new, especially in Florida.

It's the responsibility of Congress to recognize this fact, and then to make it's decision on how the election was to be settled. Of course, this would have allowed the House to properly install Bush under the rule of the Cosntitution, but Congress didn't have the nerve to do it's job, or to simply call the election in Florida for what it was, an failure on all counts.

34 posted on 09/19/2003 1:22:06 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Sir Gawain
The first interpretation of the 14th Amendment on record is Chief Justice Miller's opinion on the Slaughterhouse Cases.
The following text is from the majority opinion (about 3/4 of the way down the page):

http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[group+f_slavery!3A]/doc/{@6561}/hit_headings/words=4?

From that opinion:

Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872) (USSC+)
Opinions
MILLER, J., Opinion of the Court

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

The first observation we have to make on this clause is that it puts at rest both the questions which we stated to have been the subject of differences of opinion. It declares that persons may be citizens of the United States without regard to their citizenship of a particular State, and it overturns the Dred Scott decision by making all persons born within the United States and subject to its jurisdiction citizens of the United States. That its main purpose was to establish the citizenship of the negro can admit of no doubt. The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.

Note that Justice Miller used the words, "was intended to" as if he were relating a fact of history and not merely stating an opinion. Given that he was a contemporary of those who authored the amendment, it is clear that the original intent of the language was to prevent what is happening now: women jumping the border and bearing an American citizen.
35 posted on 09/19/2003 1:22:56 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Regulator

And another good one is:"by anyone who regards the Constitution as superior to ''constitutional law."

One of the most important doctrines in Western law is that of stare decisis, a Latin term of art which means "to stand by decided cases; to uphold precedents; to maintain former adjudications".[1] In modern jurisprudence, however, it has come to take on a life of its own, with all precedents being presumed to be well-founded unbiased legal decisions, rather than political decisions, and presumed to have both the authority of the black-letter law on which they are based, plus that of the precedents on which they are based, so that later precedents are presumed to be more authoritative than earlier ones.

The doctrine also tends to give great weight to the opinion in the case, even to the point of treating the opinion as though it was law, even though only the order and findings have the actual force of law, and only in that case, and an explanation of how the decision was reached is only dictum, or commentary. This means that a poorly-worded opinion can define a set of legal positions that exceed the bounds of the underlying black letter law, and become the basis for future precedents, as though it were black letter law itself. The problem is exacerbated by the failure of judges to clearly delineate the boundaries between edict and dictum. How stare decisis Subverts the Law

Such as, Second Amendment rights. My assumption is that State consitutions would have similar guarantees, and it would be incumbent on the individual to decide for themselves whether he was comfortable in such a state, and if not, to move to one where he is, or to agitate for change to his state's Constitution.

I agree.

36 posted on 09/19/2003 1:24:49 PM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: billbears
Citizen of the sovereign state of Georgia, and by virtue of the state's voluntary membership in the federal union, a citizen of the United StateS.

Re the 14th and it's legality, any contract signed under duress (military rule) is unenforcable, null and void. The states that refused to ratify WERE states, as evidenced by the submission of the 14th for their approval. Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government delegated the power to invade a state simply because it disagreed with that states decision.

37 posted on 09/19/2003 1:26:27 PM PDT by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: Held_to_Ransom

The nation needs to have it's own house in order so that it can clean house in the courts.

Bottom line!

38 posted on 09/19/2003 1:27:51 PM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Sir Gawain
Sir Gawain,
I have a question? Are legal aliens protected under Amendment XIV?
39 posted on 09/19/2003 1:36:25 PM PDT by Milligan
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To: soundbits
yep. later.
40 posted on 09/19/2003 1:41:20 PM PDT by Jason_b
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To: Spiff

I moved to CA in '58, before the majority here infringed upon my rights, violations I fought through political action. I continue to support the fight thru legal recourse.
If the USSC appeal fails, we will take our fight to increasing levels of civil disobedience. -- Unintended consequenses may arise.
Surprisingly, a lot of socalled FR 'conservatives' are against such constitutional action..
-- Are you? - Yall?

Spiff: -- Where do you stand on CA's supposed 'right' to ignore our US Constitutions BOR's ?





You and I have had this argument before. The Constitution created and empowered a limited Federal government. The BOR provided further express limitations on that Federal government. When amendments in the BORs says "Congress shall make no law" that becomes obvious.
If not, then the Constitution formed a national government and the states are simply subdivisions of the whole. But, you and I both know that is not what was intended.
-spiff-


Yep, we both know that puts you solidly behind the supposed 'right' of fed/state/local governments to violate our constitutional, inalienable RKBA's.

Really weird position, one you cannot defend. -- Thanks.
41 posted on 09/19/2003 1:51:03 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: ancient_geezer
Well hardly a false premise at all considering this statement.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security.

Perhaps you could inform us who stated that?

Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs.

That was the original intent. Contrary to the Hamiltonians and other king worshippers around here, the union was voluntary

42 posted on 09/19/2003 1:53:11 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: tpaine
Yep, we both know that puts you solidly behind the supposed 'right' of fed/state/local governments to violate our constitutional, inalienable RKBA's.

No. It doesn't. Our right to keep a bear arms, among other rights, is inalienable. No government has the "right" to violate them.

That, however, does not mean that the protections included in the BORs applies to state governments as the U.S. Constitution did not form the state governments. The proper location for BOR-like protections which apply to the states would be within the various constitutions of the states.

That is how the Founding Fathers intended things to be. That is NOT how things are practiced today.

43 posted on 09/19/2003 1:58:04 PM PDT by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: billbears
The same James Madison in Federalist #45 and the same who said:

James Madison, Federalist #39:

The National Government has enumerated powers that extend as Federal over the States as well as NATIONAL over the individual. Those powers are enumerated and few, but just the same plenary and supreme with regard to the States & the individual.

Constitution for the United States of America:

Your point is?

Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs.

Merely the invalid conclusion of the Author.

That was the original intent.

Of the anti Constitionalists, i.e. those supporting the Articles of Confederation as their target. Not the Constitution of Madison.

44 posted on 09/19/2003 2:12:22 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Held_to_Ransom
Congress did not need to get involved. That was never the issue. Florida's legislature is empowered by the constitution to decide how its electors are selected. It laid down the rules as to how votes were to be counted and the FSC UNconstitutionally stuck its snout into the mess which the USSC removed by returning the authority to the rules constitutionally laid down by the Florida legislature.

There NEVER was a problem in the first place until the RATS ginned up one. The same EXACT method of voting has been used FOR YEARS up here in RAT central, Cook County. Funny that OUR error rate was HIGHER than that of Florida yet no challenges were ever raised. WONDER WHY?

There is no question who won the state. EVERY SINGLE COUNT SHOWED BUSH THE WINNER. Only the terminally gullible, corrupt RATS or the utterly uninformed thought there was a problem there.

In no way did the government of Florida abrogate its responsibility. In fact, the controversy resulted from the RAT'S desire to PREVENT the governments rules from being followed.

It is true that Congress could have gotten involved had the USSC not properly settled it but that was not necessary since the STATE had already certified the results as it was bound to do BY LAW.
45 posted on 09/19/2003 2:19:18 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: billbears
-- "Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs." ---


That was the original intent. Contrary to the Hamiltonians and other king worshippers around here, the union was voluntary.
-bill b-

Indeed, -- "Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs." --- but it was amended by the BOR's:

The tenth amendments words are clear.
Some powers are delegated to the feds, some to the states, but all are reserved to the people.
--- And all such delegated powers are subject to amendment by the people.

We the people, in effect, retain all such powers/rights, as they are inalienable. -- Liberties cannot be amended away.

-- We are sovereign individuals, and our governments are not 'sovereign' over us.

Thus a majority in a state cannot vote to withdraw from our constitutional contract, in effect forcing me to either involuntarily secede from our union, or abandon my home.
46 posted on 09/19/2003 2:19:37 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: billbears
Can one be a citizen of the state of North Carolina without being a citizen of the United States? No. Could one EVER have been? No.
47 posted on 09/19/2003 2:22:55 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: Spiff
The way "things are practiced today", puts you solidly behind the supposed 'right' of fed/state/local governments to violate our constitutional, inalienable RKBA's.


That is what is happening in CA. -- and you support it.



48 posted on 09/19/2003 2:25:41 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: billbears

Contrary to the Hamiltonians and other king worshippers around here,

Intersting how some devolve to name calling when presented with evidence contrary to their fantasies. Tell us how you ever expect to make changes when you refuse to recognize you true current condition.

You can't even propose amendment to the Constitution to change that which you do not like, for you fail to recognize the authority of the Constitution and it's Articles to achieve that.

the union was voluntary

Right up until the people of the United States ratified the Constitution making it the Supreme Law of the Land replacing the Articles of Confederation you would like in place.

You want the Union to be voluntary? Enact & ratify an amendment to achieve that end. That is the method provided for by the People of the United States in the Constitution to make such changes.

You don't like the tax system in the Country, amend the Constitution to remove the powers of Congress you object to.

You don't like the Commerce Clause?, amend the Constitution to repeal that enumerated power of Congress.

You don't like the power to borrow, and create fiat dollars, amend the Constitution to repeal the enumerated power of Congress.

You don't like ... ??

It's all up to you the voter/juror and potential candidate for office and the 1st, 9th, & 10th Amendments and Article V of the Constitution.

Get busy you're falling further behind each day you fail to address the real problem; that of the majority of American people who don't care enough about liberty and want their security instead.

49 posted on 09/19/2003 2:37:25 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Milligan
I'll give you my answer while you're waiting for Sir Gawain's.

The parts of the 14th amendment that refer to "persons" - that is, the due-process and equal-protection clauses - protect everyone who comes within the reach of any state, even illegal immigrants.

50 posted on 09/19/2003 2:37:25 PM PDT by inquest (World socialism: the ultimate multinational corporation)
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