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Was the Islam of Old Spain Truly Tolerant? (The Religion of Peace™ and its idea of inclusiveness)
The New York Times ^ | Septermber 27, 2003 | Edward Rothstein

Posted on 09/27/2003 1:05:33 PM PDT by quidnunc

Granada, Spain – A dispenser of iced lemonade sits invitingly by the door of the newly whitewashed building — hospitality for summer visitors coming to the first mosque built in Granada in over 500 years.

But looming over the freshly planted garden, seeming to quiver in the furnacelike heat, is another image: the Alhambra, a 14th-century Muslim fortress of red-tinted stone that is everything this mosque is not: ancient, battle-scarred, monumental. It seems at once a reminder of lost glories and a spur for their restoration.

It may also inspire darker sentiments. For it was from the Alhambra's watchtower that Christian conquerors unfurled their flag in 1492, marking the end of almost eight centuries of Islamic rule in Spain. Less than a decade later, forced conversions of Muslims began; by 1609, they were being expelled.

That lost Muslim kingdom — the southern region of Spain the Muslims called al-Andalus and is still called Andalusia — now looms over far more than the new mosque's garden. And variations of "the Moor's last sigh" — the sigh the final ruler of the Alhambra supposedly gave as he gazed backward — abound.

For radical Islamists, the key note is revenge: in one of Osama bin Laden's post-9/11 broadcasts, his deputy invoked "the tragedy of al-Andalus." For Spain, which is destroying Islamic terrorist cells while welcoming a growing Muslim minority (a little over 1 percent of Spain's 40 million citizens), the note yearned for is reconciliation.

The sighs have also included a retrospective utopianism. Islamic Spain has been hailed for its "convivencia" — its spirit of tolerance in which Jews, Christians and Muslims, created a premodern renaissance. Córdoba, in the 10th century, was a center of commerce and scholarship. Arabic was a conduit between classical knowledge and nascent Western science and philosophy. The ecumenical Andalusian spirit was even invoked at this summer's opening ceremony for the new mosque.

That heritage, though, can be difficult to define. Even at the mosque, the facade of liberality gave way: at its conference on "Islam in Europe," one speaker praised al-Andalus not for its openness but for its rigorous fundamentalism. Were similar views also part of the Andalusian past?

-snip-

But as many scholars have argued, this image is distorted. Even the Umayyad dynasty, begun by Abd al-Rahman in 756, was far from enlightened. Issues of succession were often settled by force. One ruler murdered two sons and two brothers. Uprisings in 805 and 818 in Córdoba were answered with mass executions and the destruction of one of the city's suburbs. Wars were accompanied by plunder, kidnappings and ransom. Córdoba itself was finally sacked by Muslim Berbers in 1013, its epochal library destroyed.

Andalusian governance was also based on a religious tribal model. Christians and Jews, who shared Islam's Abrahamic past, had the status of dhimmis — alien minorities. They rose high but remained second-class citizens; one 11th-century legal text called them members of "the devil's party." They were subject to special taxes and, often, dress codes. Violence also erupted, including a massacre of thousands of Jews in Grenada in 1066 and the forced exile of many Christians in 1126.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alhambra; ancienthistory; andalusia; christians; clashofcivilizatio; granada; islam; jews; moors; mosque; reconquista; religionofpieces; spain
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Quote:

But these varieties of Islamic style, far from reflecting a humanistic vision, suggest a world governed by the rigors of the intellect and the strictures of law. That world, whether in a mosque or a palace, presumes submission and declares mastery. … But the individual is not the focus of attention. The position or status of the individual is. This is quite different from the humane ideal so often attached to Andalusia's name. The outcome is not a version of tolerance, though at its best it can offer a version of the sublime.

The upshot is, to the Muslim mind tolerance and inclusion means that infidels are turned into second-class citizens dependent upon the mercy of Muslims instead of being killed.

1 posted on 09/27/2003 1:05:33 PM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc
I have discussed this history with educated people who knew absolutely nothing about it. After getting them at least a little enlightened they usually say that nothing like this could happen today.

But it is such ignorance which could enable it again. France could be the first to fall into a modern dark age. Will people who have adopted the multicultural view defend their own culture when attempts are made to smother it?

While much has changed, many things have not. Perhaps there will be another 'al-Andalus'. Is there a modern day Charles Martel in our future?

2 posted on 09/27/2003 1:20:31 PM PDT by Voltage
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To: quidnunc
During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.
3 posted on 09/27/2003 1:21:31 PM PDT by curmudgeonII
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To: quidnunc
Its this Spanish version of Islam that the muslims are using to appeal to Mexicans, Latins and South Americans

Islam making inroads south of our borders as well as north and right here at home- for that matterl...

Though the Catholic Church of Spain made catholics of nearly all of the Americas....at least some Hispanics in prison seem to be converting...

Those who dont revert back to some bastardized form of Pagan Earth/Aztec/Mayan/Inca worship in Aztlan...may imbrace Islam

After all any religon that wishes to run off or kill off white people and take their possesions cant be all bad...then there is the matter of
pedophile priests who are probably not making many friends among Hispanics who for the most part abhore that kind of perversity...
4 posted on 09/27/2003 1:28:33 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Voltage
We had better hatch a batch of Hammers. A return to the 7th century AD (CE to be politically correct) is unthinkable.
5 posted on 09/27/2003 1:28:42 PM PDT by Whispering Smith
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To: curmudgeonII
That may be true, but Christianity did not start the wars with Islam, Islam did. Christianity only fought back.

Furthermore, Christianity was adopted by a Roman Emperor, but in the same years Islam was busy conquering territory for the ol' Arabian moon god, Christianity was not spreading itself with the sword. Later, after the Crusades, with the Teutonic knights and with the Spanish in America, perhaps, but basically, Christianity has spread with missonaries preaching, not soldiers putting the sword to people and telling them convert or die, as does Islam.

6 posted on 09/27/2003 1:31:21 PM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: quidnunc
How Intolerant!

How dare they suggest Islam was not tolerant?

And from the NY Times, no less!
7 posted on 09/27/2003 1:31:31 PM PDT by Guillermo ( Proud Infidel)
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To: curmudgeonII
The difference is that the defects of Christianity came from the defects of believers - that is, their tendency to ignore the fundamental precepts of their religion in their greed, quest for power, etc.

By contrast, the defects of Islam come from its practice: it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system. Every time Muslims in Spain or elsewhere became more "tolerant" - that is, less zealous in clinging to the bizarre precepts of their religion - they were destroyed by other groups of more zealous Muslims.

This is exactly what is happening once again in the contemporary world.
8 posted on 09/27/2003 1:34:53 PM PDT by livius
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To: curmudgeonII
During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.

Perhaps this will help. Whenever the Christian brute enforces intolerance, he has to contort the New Testament to divine his moral obligation. The Muslim brute, on the other hand, just simply has to have a literal reading of the Koran.

9 posted on 09/27/2003 1:35:52 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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To: curmudgeonII
curmudgeonII wrote: During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.

Granted, but nobody today with two brain cells to rub together claims that it was.

On the other hand Andalusian Islam is touted by many as being nirvana.

10 posted on 09/27/2003 1:36:11 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc; *Clash of Civilizatio
Very valuable article.
11 posted on 09/27/2003 1:36:15 PM PDT by denydenydeny
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To: Voltage
There will never be another "al-Andalus" in Espana, never. My mother's family is from Galicia; A Coruna to be exact. A ciudad on the far northwestern tip of Spain. These people, though far from Andalusia, have a visceral dislike for the "morisco"

Though bin ladin made remarks about restoring "morisco" rule in Espana, that is about as likely as the "reconquista" of the American southwest by the Aztalans.

12 posted on 09/27/2003 1:45:24 PM PDT by AdvisorB (Zindabad Azadi- Long live freedom as expressed by the Iranian students.)
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To: livius
By contrast, the defects of Islam come from its practice: it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system. Every time Muslims in Spain or elsewhere became more "tolerant" - that is, less zealous in clinging to the bizarre precepts of their religion - they were destroyed by other groups of more zealous Muslims.
Very good point. Thanks.
13 posted on 09/27/2003 1:48:08 PM PDT by Tunehead54 (Support Our Troops!)
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To: livius
bang. you nailed it.
14 posted on 09/27/2003 1:53:33 PM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: Mr.Smorch
have you looked at Kali, NM, AZ, and Tay-hah lately?
15 posted on 09/27/2003 1:55:03 PM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: livius
The difference is that the
defects of Christianity come from the defects of believers
- that is, their tendency to ignore the fundamental precepts of their religion in their greed, quest for power, etc.

By contrast,
the defects of Islam come from its practice:
it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system.

verbum sat sapientes

16 posted on 09/27/2003 1:55:49 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: gpl4eva
Spain was not a land of gothic barbarians, but I guess, if that's what you want to believe, a little history wouldn't get in your way.
18 posted on 09/27/2003 2:10:09 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius
livius wrote: Spain was not a land of gothic barbarians, but I guess, if that's what you want to believe, a little history wouldn't get in your way.

Well, Torquemada wasn't exactly a fifteenth-century Ghandi, the Spanish inquisiition wasn't an early-day Rotary Club and an auto da fe wasn't quite akin to a Sunday-school picnic.

19 posted on 09/27/2003 2:21:45 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: gpl4eva
gpl4eva wrote: … too bad they couldn't be content with doing like the moors had done in portugal -- bring civilization to a land of gothic barbarians.

The Moors brought civilization to the Spanish much in the same way that Nazis brought civilization to the Jews in the years prior to the 'final solution.'

20 posted on 09/27/2003 2:29:12 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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