The Oath Against Modernism and the Spirit of Vatican II

Catholic Family News ^ | January, 2000 | Raymond B. Marcin

[kstewskis]

You gonna let your mother link to a website that says John Paul II is an illegitimate Pope?

My mom is a big girl, and can think for herself. She is not easily swayed by anything, especially "man made" rules or thoughts.

I also think that the adults in our OCIA can decipher for themselves. This will give them opportunities to ask questions and see a larger picture.

There are some very good things on this site...I'm not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater," so to speak.

Thanks for your concern though. I'm not crazy about the anti semite stuff either, from what you say...however I haven't gotten that far on the link yet to render an objective opinion about what that site says.

I'll let them know about that part too.

[TheCrusader]

"In fact, you may not believe it, but Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger are actually the good guys and are helping to preserve the deposit of faith from modernists and false teaching that has crept into the Church."

You are right, I don't believe it.

The evidence against the orthodoxy of these two men is overwhelming. From the Pope's kissing of the Koran to his traveling about the earth apologizing for the historical Church and everything in between I am saddened. From his teaching that "evolution is more than just a theory" to his shocking refusal to excommunicate a single priest or bishop amongst the hundreds upon hundreds of clergy who raped boys and the dozens of Bishops who covered up this atrocity, there is nothing whatsover to convince me of the Holy Father's orthodoxy.

The pope will write his opposition to Communion in the hand, but then hold Masses on Vatican grounds where he himself distributes Communion in the hand. He invites the likes of the heroin addicted, anti-society icon Bob Dylan to entertain himself at the Vatican and holds embarrassing and bizarre "Youth Day" events all over the globe that rival a Madonna concert with raucus music and faithless teens looking for a fun time. He has no problem whatsoever excommunicating or censuring a rebellious CONSERVATIVE bishop or priest, but obstinately refuses to do the same to the rebellious LIBERAL clergy and prelates. I could go on all night citing evidence that this Pope is no conservative or orthodox Catholic, but to those who are too afraid to admit the facts no amount of evidence will convince them. So be it.

[TheCrusader]

"I reject the proposition that all other religions, which even though they may be grossly in error, are in error in every detail. Particularly to the extent that they agree with Catholic teaching, then by definition they cannot be in error in that respect. And I don't see how that can be a heretical proposition."

It only takes one single article of faith to be rejected by any Catholic for him to place himself outside of the Church. How much further from the Arc of Salvation are the 'religions' which teach that Jesus was a mere man, (Mohammedism), or worse yet, teach that He is in Hell, (as the Talmud does)???

If you love the Truth, and if you love your Catholic faith, and if you love Christ, you cannot help but to reject these anti-Christ faiths and all of their teachings. There have been other earlier faiths that mimicked the Catholic faith somewhat, or held some of the same tenets of faith, and they have been condemned by various Catholic Ecumenical Councils. Such as the Cathari, Arianism, and some earlier sects like the Essenians and gnostics. As I said earlier, the truth is whole, entire and complete, or it is not the truth at all. You simply cannot have 'partial truths'. This is like being lost in the desert and having bits and pieces of a map to your destination--- the bits and pieces are true but will avail you nothing whatsoever. Unless you have the whole map the bits and pieces of 'truth' are useless.

As Paul said when speaking of those who refused to believe and convert: "What have I to do with them"?

[Unam Sanctam]

The evidence against the orthodoxy of these two men is overwhelming.

I see no such evidence. On the contrary, I see two great men striving to preserve the deposit of faith in difficult times of modernism and moral heresy. Talk about special pleading! To equate the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger with modernist "spirit of Vatican II" types like Richard McBrien or Hans Kueng and his ilk is simply obscene. It shows a true lack of any ability to make distinctions and a complete lack of charity toward the head of our Church.

From the Pope's kissing of the Koran

You guys constantly bring this up. There is no evidence that this was anything more than a courteous gesture, and probably a mistaken one. It is not a statement on faith or morals whatsoever, but simply a physical gesture. It is not an infallible definition. Nothing in anything the Pope has said or written decrees or implies that we should pay any heed to this book. Perhaps he made an honest mistake, and it is very uncharitable of you to interpret a mistaken GESTURE as something heretical when there is no eveidence whatsoever of heretical teaching about Islam or the Koran.

to his traveling about the earth apologizing for the historical Church

He has not apologized for teachings on faith and morals, but for sinful actions of members of the Church. Whether he really can apologize for other individuals is something that is certainly questionable, but it is a good faith gesture and not heretical. Members of the Church committed sins, e.g., unjustified killings in the Crusades and Inquisition, and to the extent they have committed sin, they are partially separated from the Body of Christ, as we are when we are not in a state of grace. Therefore, the apologies do not contradict the doctrine that the Mystical Body and Bride of Christ is spotless and pure in a theological sense.

and everything in between I am saddened. From his teaching that "evolution is more than just a theory"

A Catholic need not accept that the creation described in Genesis is literally true (except that there was an Adam and an Eve who are the parents of humanity and that there was an actual fall from grace, per Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis), as opposed to true on a more symbolic level -- we can look at the different types of litterature that formed the Bible.

to his shocking refusal to excommunicate a single priest or bishop amongst the hundreds upon hundreds of clergy who raped boys and the dozens of Bishops who covered up this atrocity,

These are sins, which hopefully these erring clerics have confessed and done penance for. They are not challenging on an ideological level the teachings of the faith.

there is nothing whatsover to convince me of the Holy Father's orthodoxy.

The pope will write his opposition to Communion in the hand, but then hold Masses on Vatican grounds where he himself distributes Communion in the hand.

This is a disciplinary liturgical matter, not a doctrine of the faith.

He invites the likes of the heroin addicted, anti-society icon Bob Dylan to entertain himself at the Vatican

I'm not familiar with the incident, but I hardly see this as heretical. Jesus Himself hung out with publicans and sinners to encourage their repentance.

and holds embarrassing and bizarre "Youth Day" events all over the globe that rival a Madonna concert with raucus music and faithless teens looking for a fun time.,/p>

How do you know they are "faithless". These events may not be to your liking, but they are trying to reach out to modern youth in a way that they are used to. If it has brought some youngsters closer to Christ, then I don't see a problem. I don't see any heresy here.

He has no problem whatsoever excommunicating or censuring a rebellious CONSERVATIVE bishop or priest, but obstinately refuses to do the same to the rebellious LIBERAL clergy and prelates.

He certainly could do more in this regard, but he has done some, e.g. Hans Kueng, and has promoted orthodox faith through his teaching and preaching and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Basically, he is waiting out the liberals, hoping they will die off (the younger clergy by the way are more orthodox than the older ones), rather than coming down hard. Perhaps one could criticize his strategy on prudential grounds, but it is not heretical.

I could go on all night citing evidence that this Pope is no conservative or orthodox Catholic, but to those who are too afraid to admit the facts no amount of evidence will convince them. So be it.

I'm not afraid of anything. I have stated the facts and I see no evidence of lack of orthodoxy. Viva il Papa!

[TheCrusader]

"even pagans might on occasion have glimpses of the truth, the fullness of which subsists in the Catholic Church."

This is heart of the problem that today's Catholics are experiencing. They have been taught the blasphemous error that the fullness of truth merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. This new-age teaching has supplanted the classical-traditional Catholic teaching that the Catholic Church is the truth, and the difference has enormous implications.

"if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

As the above Scripture verse says, the Church is the 'pillar and foundation' of the truth, meaning that its spiritual structure of doctrines embodies, upholds and dispenses the Truth, hence the Church, (which is a set of teachings), is the truth. When you say that the truth merely 'subsists' in the Church you make the Church and the truth two sovereign entities and compartmentalize one within the other. This horrendous teaching implies that the Church contains or harnesses the truth when in fact she embodies the truth and is woven together by the fabric of Truth. The Church, as the Bride of Christ, is betrothed to the Truth, (Jesus Christ), and the two become one. (I am the way, the truth, and the life").

Furtermore, this modernist teaching allows that the truth can 'subsist' in other churches and religions as well, since it is not restricted by the totality of Catholic teachings. In thier view the truth can be sliced, diced and spread about in bits and pieces and fed like French Fries to people instead of the whole potato of revealed truth.

[TheCrusader]

"To equate the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger with modernist "spirit of Vatican II" types like Richard McBrien or Hans Kueng and his ilk is simply obscene. It shows a true lack of any ability to make distinctions and a complete lack of charity toward the head of our Church."

Pssst. Hans Kung is still proudly teaching his errors through books, interviews, articles, radio and t.v. programs. But don't tell the Holy Father, because the Vatican has "silenced" him. tee hee

[TheCrusader]

"From the Pope's kissing of the Koran--- and it is very uncharitable of you to interpret a mistaken GESTURE as something heretical when there is no eveidence whatsoever of heretical teaching about Islam or the Koran."

Hmmmmm, he kissed the Koran, and sent an Apostolic Delegate to the new Mosque in Rome to bless it, and now didn't he teach us in the catechism that Muslims are going to heaven because we are all children of Abraham? I think it's strange that he would even bother to write his views on Islam in a CATHOLIC catechism in the first place. Not very "traditional" in my humble opinion. He sure is a cutting edge progressive pope though, I gotta give you that. See you at the next World Youth Day?

[Unam Sanctam]

He does not teach as a Catholic theologian. He speaks only for himself.

[Unam Sanctam]

This was a mistaken act, not a doctrinal teaching, and everyone would have happily forgotten it if you guys didn't constantly bring this up again and again and again because you are not objectively seeing what the Pope teaches, but rather, like the Democratic National Committee, want to actively promote scandal through lies and distortions. You guys WANT the Pope to be a heretic! Rather than interpreting his statements and actions in charity and good faith in an orthodox light, you grasp at every straw to try and prove that the Pope is a heretic. You are no different from the Protestants of the Reformation who desperately wanted to show that the Pope was a heretic and used every lie and defamation in the book in order to try to prove it. Since you are not obedient to the Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium in your rejection of the Pope and promote your own private judgment, you are Protestant for all intents and purposes. The Pope has taught nothing heretical as regards Islam, as I have shown in other posts. You have yet to show a single teaching that is heretical.

[Unam Sanctam]

I may have used "subsists" in error here. Actually, the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth. There is no question about that. The term subsists was used by Lumen Gentium in a different context, i.e., the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. This merely means that, while the fullness of Truth resides in the Catholic Church, others that may not be formally tied to the visible Church, may be tied in some invisible way to her. This is a Scriptural and a Patristic teaching of long pedigree.

[Unam Sanctam]

The Muslims invoke God as "beneficent and merciful". Do we Catholics now have to deny that God has these attributes because the Muslims believe He does?

[RaginCajunTrad]

"You gonna let your mother link to a website that says John Paul II is an illegitimate Pope?"

That would not be as flagrant as a diocesan bookstore selling books by Hans Kung, Joan Chittester, Elizabeth Schlusser-Fiorenza, and other dissendents not to mention non-Catholics such as Martin Luther King and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

The poor unsuspecting Catholics that go to the bookstore will assume that these books will be "approved" so to speak. While the website may be in gross error, it is not operating under diocesan auspices and thus, let the user beware.

[sinkspur]

The poor unsuspecting Catholics that go to the bookstore will assume that these books will be "approved" so to speak.

Does your diocese operate a bookstore? Mine doesn't.

"Approved" for what? Only an ignoramus would think that that Martin Luther King was reflecting Catholic teaching with his books, although his non-violent protest is in keeping with Catholic social doctrine.

And, I'm sorry, but a purported Catholic website that says that JP II is an illegitimate pope is far worse than anything written by the authors you list, though I laugh at such nonsense and the people who support such nonsense.

[sinkspur]

I read it on the website. Go to www.the-pope.com and read it yourself. Sedevacantist city.

[sinkspur]

www.the-pope.com is linked to on kensmen. In fact, that's all Apologia is, a list of links, like Drudge.

[sinkspur]

That's a link.

Here's the link to a sedevacantist website, also found at Apologia.

From the "Introduction":

The Magisterium which is taken as authoritative here is that taught and enforced by every Pope who is clearly recognized as such by the entire Church. Since legitimate questions have been raised as to the reliability, orthodoxy, sanity, or even Papal claims regarding certain recent and current leaders of the Vatican establishment, precedence is given to the clear teachings of those reliable Popes from Pius XII on back to Peter himself. More recent teachings, if taken at all, may only be taken to the extent to which they can be reconciled to the previous teachings.

JP II is not a Pope to these knuckle-draggers; he's the "leader of the Vatican establishment."

[sinkspur]

Want an eyeful?

Click on this link to go to some juicy anti-semitism, right there on the Apologia website.

Just scroll down to the Jewish Tribal Review link.