Posted on 02/15/2004 10:57:05 PM PST by lockeliberty
No I mean cult as in cult . I am asking if cult members believe that THEY have the witness of the Spirit do they?
That question should never be necessary. When you are led of the Spirit (Romans 8) you have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2) and therefore, you immediately know another person who is of the same Mind because you are One in Him (John 17). When you are One and speaking of spiritual matters, there is instant understanding:
AG this begs my question, and frankly it is circular teaching . I KNOW I am not of the same mind as any cult member. The word of God tells me that .
If a member of a cult says they have the witness of the spirit that their belief is true..is it ? Is there more than one truth?
As long as the person BELIEVES it is the Spirit of God are they saved?
IOW, the answer is not a simple yes/no globally applicable to all cults. You would have to name a particular belief system and reveal the adherents and their activities. If you were to do this, then I would be able to research and observe their tenets, members and activities and refer back to Matthew 7:15-23, Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 John 4 to test the spirits, looking for all of these: profession of faith, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If any of these fruits of the Spirit were missing, then I would discern the spirit as false and turn away.
WHAT IS A CULT?
The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside of the mainstream of Western religion. Exactly which groups should be considered cults is a matter of disagreement amongt researchers in the cult phenomena, and considerable confusion exists. However, three definitions dominate the writings of social scientists, Christian counter-cult ministries, and secular anticultists.Social scientists tend to be the least pejorative in their use of the term. They divide religious groups into three categories: churches, sects, and cults. "Churches" are the large denominations characterized by their inclusive approach to life and their indentification with the prevailing culture. In the United States, the churchly denominations would include such groups as the Roman Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, the American Baptist Church, the United Church of Christ and the Protestant Episcopal Church. Groups that have broken away from the churchly denominations are termed "sects." They tend to follow the denominations in most patterns but are more strict in doctrine and behavioral demands placed upon members and emphasize their separation and distinctiveness from the larger culture (frequently spoken of as a "rejection of worldliness"). Typical sects have disavowed war (Quakers and Mennonites), championed controversial religious experiences (pentecostals), and demanded conformity to detailed codes of dress, personal piety, and moral conduct (the holiness churches). Sects such as the fundamentalist Christian groups have argued for a stringent orthodoxy in the face of the doctrinal latitude allowed in most larger church bodies. More extreme sect bodies have developed patterns and practices which have largely isolated them from even their closest religious neighbors--snake-handling, drinking poison, alternative sexual relationships, unusual forms of dress.
While most sects follow familiar cultural patterns to a large extent "cults" follow an altogether different religious structure, one foreign and alien to the prevalent religious communities. Cults represent a force of religious innovation within a culture. In most cases that innovation comes about by the transplantation of a religion from a different culture by the immigration of some of its members and leaders. Thus during the twentieth century, Hinduism and Buddhism have been transplanted to America. In sociological terms, Hindu and Buddhist groups are, in America, cults. Cults may also come about through religious innovation from within the culture. The Church of Scientology ad the Synanon Church are new religious structures which emerged in American society without any direct foreign antecedents.
When social scientists began their discussion of cults in the 1920s, they were aware of only a few cult groups, well-known groups which they could not fit into their more crucial debates about churches versus sects--theosophy, Christian Science, spiritualism, and the two large Hindu groups: the Vedanta Society and the Self-Realization Fellowship. Elmer Clark's pioneering survey of The Small Sects in America (1949) listed fourteen New Thought bodies and thirteen Esoteric bodies, showing an awareness of some twenty-seven cults (plus a few others such as the black Jews considered in the body of his text)
I believe you visited this site, but here is the URL , where you can also see a list of the most commonly accepted cults
IOW, the answer is not a simple yes/no globally applicable to all cults. You would have to name a particular belief system and reveal the adherents and their activities. If you were to do this, then I would be able to research and observe their tenets, members and activities and refer back to Matthew 7:15-23, Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 John 4 to test the spirits, looking for all of these: profession of faith, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If any of these fruits of the Spirit were missing, then I would discern the spirit as false and turn away.
Almo , I have to say you do not hold a Christian view of salvation. Remembering that Satan is the liar and the deceiver and the imitator of God , he is capable of false fruit . Judas preached the gospel and did miracles yet he betrayed Christ. We are not saved by works.
The fact one is lost without the Jesus of the Bible is why churches send out Missionaries..at the following of the command of Christ.
Their is no other name by which one will be saved.
Jesus said I am the way the truth an the light NO MAN COMES TO THE FAHTER BUT BY ME
There are clean living atheists , and Buddhists that do good work , but they are not saved..at least according to the bible I read.
I have a bit of a scriptural teaching for you AG..the bible was written to those that were already saved.The church . Without the illumination of the Holy Spirit it is gibberish to those that are perishing .
You do not seem to want to give a direct answer to my question..(which may be an answer in itself:>)
Can one be saved without a faith in Jesus Christ as their savior?
And thank you for the above link! I do not recall surfing there before, but I did follow through and found an even more exhaustive and current website for gathering information on obscure and/or bizarre belief systems. The information is alphabetized and color coded for easy research. Fascinating website … a database with current events for research on cults and anti-cults and anti-anti-cults.
Lurkers may find their biography of J. Gordon Melton quite illuminating. He is the founder of the Institute for the Study of American Religion whose site you linked above. He also is a founder of CESNUR and runs the U.S. operation. Strangely, he also runs the U.S. chapter of The Transylvania Society of Dracula I also found it quite interesting that he filed an amicus curiae to the court on behalf of the Church of Scientology; it is referenced in this declaration by Jeffrey Hadden.
Food for thought…
I did not know or judge the status of your salvation ( as you do not know mine). I have no clue as I have never heard you proclaim or deny the gospel
The measure I use is that of scripture "saved by faith in Jesus Christ "and His propitiation for our sins.
The Bible is clear that there is no salvation out side Faith in Jesus Christ , God incarnate crucified , died and buried , risen on the third day
I do believe that Pastor xzins would agree with me on that , as it is in the creed of every church that is Christian in creed.
I also suspect that Pastor xzins would agree that seeing a nice personality or a helpful hand or gifts are not necessarily fruit that is a result of our salvation .
I did lots of good works before I was saved, but I was lost on my ways to hell, until God in His gracious love saved me..in spite of myself.
The problem I see with a totally "non judgmental "approach to other gospels or the spiritual state and need of others is there is no need or zeal to give the gospel ..why bother??? We are to go and tell , that always requires a judgment on who to go to :>)
I also have used your link several times. I will not link it now but "Watchman Fellowship" I think their presentation of individual cults and sects is clearer
One of the things we used to do with Texas Baptist Men’s Lay Renewal preparation meetings was praying and meditating to discover our gifts of the Spirit. (I Corinthians 12) As a result of that effort I discovered my gift is to encourage other believers; evidently He has given me a reassuring demeanor (LOL!). He routinely puts in a role to encourage believers in their home-going. I am not however gifted for teaching, preaching and evangelizing.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
AG I did not know that we had a choice in obeying the word of God , and that we could do it our way.
One of the things we used to do with Texas Baptist Men’s Lay Renewal preparation meetings was praying and meditating to discover our gifts of the Spirit. (I Corinthians 12) As a result of that effort I discovered my gift is to encourage other believers; evidently He has given me a reassuring demeanor (LOL!). He routinely puts in a role to encourage believers in their home-going. I am not however gifted for teaching, preaching and evangelizing.
Having the "gift of encouragement " ( not one I find in the Bible as a fruit of the Spirit , but agree that it is a wonderful trait to have, especially for the work of Christians in their ministries) But does not exclude the command of the gospel in the proclaiming the gospel
AG , we do not know each other well . From what I have seen of you it would seem you are a very kind and caring person . But I am very troubled that in all of our exchanges you have yet to proclaim that without faith in Jesus there is no salvation, that is what I would call proclaiming the gospel . Jesus is not a "state " of being. Jesus is God incarnate , that carried my sin and paid the price I could never pay , Jesus clothes the saved in His robe of Righteousness .He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords , my Saviour .
All men need encouragement , but they need Christ more .If we fail to clearly present the gospel , we may be encouraging men to an eternity of the flames of Hell.
No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit
Why do I think you're a Christian? Mostly because of your behavior. Also, of course, because I've read posts where you declare that your trust abides in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Finally, encouraging is listed as a gift of the Spirit.
Romans 12: 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[2] faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Do you bother with altar calls pastor? I am sure you have a parish full of wonderful people that have no need to proclaim Christ or to say they lean on Him for their salvation.
We are after all told we are to" proclaim Him before men or he will not proclaim us before the Father." and that we are saved by faith and not by works lest any one boast.
I do not know if ag is saved. I do not know if you are saved. We are after all only computer acquaintances . What I do know is that we are told to go and to tell.
I repeat
No one can say Jesus is LORD but by the Spirit of God.
As I said we can look for support and encourage people right into hell..Would you point me to those post Pastor? I have asked ag several times if one can be saved without Christ , and I have never gotten a response
Instead, I strongly suspect that you are first a steward in God’s vineyard, caring for the children and others He has put in your care, realizing all the time that they are His and not yours – that you look at every dollar you put in a coke machine as His and not yours, that the shoes on your feet as His and not yours and care for all such things – that you take every opportunity to knock on doors or hand out Bibles or speak to people about Christ. I further strongly suggest that you give personal testimony and joyfully reveal that Christ is the only begotten Son of God, come to us from heaven, suffered and died a propitiation for our sins, raised on the third day and sitting at the right hand of the Father.
RnMomof7, I do all of these things too – but with a few differences according to how my calling has changed over the years. I used to knock on doors, hand out boxes of Gideon’s Bibles (I was Gideon’s Auxiliary). The whole nine yards. But God has a different assignment for me in the twilight of my years. Now I sit at His feet, ingest the living Word, worship Him continually and diligently surrender to His will. To help me love Him all the more, He provides me with the opportunity to love the unlovable, forgive the unforgivable, encourage the inconsolable and declare Him. This is my joyful calling!
As a final point, you keep asking me whether someone can be saved without Christ. If anyone could be good enough to get to heaven, then Christ died for nothing.
Thank you for the discussion, it has been illuminating.
That is not found in the great commission
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)
Matthew 16;4 is not applicable in the least.
One does not need to travel far to find the lost ...most of the work of the apostles was done in a very small area
I have traveled on a mission out of the country as well as giving presentations to womans groups. But most of all I am not afraid or ashamed to proclaim Christ, I have no shame in my salvation.I have a desire to see men saved and so I will share Christ where I can .
Do you believe one can be saved without faith in the Christ of the bible ?
It is also true that the “Great Commission” refers only to Matthew 28:19-20. But my comments to you were related to “everything entailed in the Great Commission” and not the Great Commission alone. In context, here is the Great Commission starting at verse 16 (emphasis mine):
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; [but] men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. – Luke 14:25-35
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God…. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit….
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. – excerpted from John 3
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:25-30
Do not fret too much over these threads, AG. Some of the conversations are much ado about very little in the long run. Sometimes points that we try so hard to make in debate we find ourselves on the opposite side of one year later.....sometimes, embarrassingly and unwittingly.
Please do ! That is a part of MY ministry .
Have a good trip
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