Philosophy and Christian Theology (My title)

Book | 1992 | Gordan Spykman

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your post!

Unless perhaps the Scripture can have multiple meanings given by the Holy Spirit to different spiritually attuned people.

There is only one God, one Word, one Truth, one Jesus, one Holy Spirit. And the Scriptures reveal Him truly, but not fully. It is the Holy Spirit who leads us to all understanding (Romans 8, John, I Corinthians 2)

But the Holy Spirit leads only as we submit and therefore, indeed, people and churches of different nature and nurture will have differences in doctrine.

The twelve who were chosen by Jesus were quite different individuals and had disputes amongst themselves (Acts 15). Likewise, the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are quite different and yet all accepted with commendations and rebukes. Nevertheless, the core belief in Jesus Christ is the same (1 John 4).

Jesus could have chosen twelve disciples like Peter, but He did not. He could have rejected all churches but Ephesus, but He did not.

From all of this I conclude that it is ok if one wants to be like Paul and another like Peter and another like John, etc. It is ok for a church to be like Ephesus, Thyatira or Philadelphia, etc. It is ok to be Calvinist or Arminian or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or whatever - as long as the core belief remains.

As for me, I'd rather be like John and the church of Philadelphia and eschew all doctrine labels.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

An interesting distinction, but would not our "being" direct our "doing?" Hence being results necessarily in doing. And failure at doing indicates our being isn't perfect.

Bingo. Time for a repost of 1 John 4 (below). If the man is fully abiding in Christ, he will be keeping the Great Commandments - to love God absolutely and everyone else unconditionally (paraphrased). Christ tells us that all of the Law and the Prophets "hang" on those commandments. (Matthew 22:36-40)

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

[CCWoody]

***As for me, I'd rather be like John and the church of Philadelphia and eschew all doctrine labels.***

No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
(2 Peter 1:20 GB)

Woody.

[drstevej]

Is there truth beyond the "core" belief in Jesus? If so how does one tell whether theological statements (ex. your comments in your post) are right or wrong? Paul commended the Bereans in Acts 17:11 for searching the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. He called them nobel.

***It is ok to be Calvinist or Arminian or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or whatever - as long as the core belief remains.***

What does "OK" mean here? Are these differences incidental and unimportant? Are Arians OK?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for posting 2 Peter 1:20 several times. It is one of my favorites as well! I repeat it here in context:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. - 2 Peter 1:19-21

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply and your questions!

Is there truth beyond the "core" belief in Jesus?

Indeed. The indwelling Holy Spirit leads the believer into Truth:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15-17

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you - John 14:26

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. - John 16:13-15

Indeed, the Bereans were noble in checking what they were being told by searching the Scriptures every night. The Scriptures reveal God truly, but not fully. Thus the Scriptures can only take the seeker so far; it is much like trying to know an entire movie when one has only seen a few minutes of it. To further know Truth the seeker must be a believer, a born again Christian who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, and he must continually ingest the living Word (John 6).

What does "OK" mean here? Are these differences incidental and unimportant? Are Arians OK?

Again, I appeal to 1 John 4 in post 242 for the criteria in testing the spirits, i.e. profession of faith and love. Moreover, Jesus gave us this instruction in the Sermon on the Mount:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In Galatians 5:22-23 the fruits of the Spirit are named. Therefore, I personally determine whether or not to listen to what a Christian person, minister, church or whatever is saying or whether to turn away as follows:

If I look around at all they are saying and doing and I see love everywhere, I listen; if I see hate, I turn away. If I look around at all they are saying and doing and I see joy, peace and patience, I listen; if I see sorrow, turbulence and anxiety, I turn away. If I look around at all they are saying and doing and I see kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control, I listen; but if I see meanness, cruelty, roughness, fickleness and impulsiveness, I turn away.

This is a discernment of spirits, not a judgment of the people themselves. Thus if I were to walk into a service and the minister began preaching that non-whites are to be hated, I would walk away.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

~"Are you a dichotomist or a trichotomist?"~

I think too much time spent on these distinctions is foolish. Man is body, mind, soul, spirit -- which can generally be termed "body and soul." But what good end does this constant dissection serve?

And ultimately, it can lead to heresy, as in the following interesting article "Trichotomy: Beachhead for Gnostic Influences" --

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr95/julaug/mr9504trichotomy.html

Perhaps a better place to spend our time would be this link, "The Knowledge of God and of Ourselves Mutually Connected" by John Calvin.

http://www.smartlink.net/%7Edouglas/calvin/bK1ch01.html

And then there's Scripture, ever faithful.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time; also He has put eternity into men's minds, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." -- Ecclesiastes 3:11

[drstevej]

***I think too much time spent on these distinctions is foolish. Man is body, mind, soul, spirit -- which can generally be termed "body and soul." But what good end does this constant dissection serve?***

Exactly my sentiments, Dr. E.

[Dataman]

But what good end does this constant dissection serve?

Exactly. Material and immaterial, soma and psyche, body and soul. Those are the only two certain distinctions.

[lockeliberty]

Hey Vern! (I've been waiting to say that)

Thanks for the Wesley sermon.

A few observations.

1. I was somewhat confused when Wesley, and I quote, said, "Hereby he totally lost, not only the favour, but likewise the image of God." If man totally lost the image of God how did he regain a portion of it? Was it through some sort of evolutionary process?

2. Sure enough. Just as Xzins pointed out he chops up man into the spiritual and moral.

3. The whole basis of his sermon was on the "earthen vessel." No doubt Wesley viewed this earthen vessel as the lower part of man. I would contend that this earthen vessel was created good and is a intergal part of man as any other part we have. When we are living on the New Earth I'm sure we'll have a New earthen vessel.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...when Wesley said, "Hereby he totally lost, not only the favour, but likewise the image of God."

That's why I prefer Calvin who maintained that man and earth, being creations of the Almighty, were splendid works of divine purpose.

"We must not be hindered by the malice of men, but rather contemplate the image of God in them, which by its excellence and dignity moves and enables us to love them." -- John Calvin.

[Vernon]

See "Man - The image of God" thread, post #3, then #5.

[RnMomof7]

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. - John 16:13-15

AG, what do we do with the fact that cult members will tell you the spirit was confirmed their faith ?

Who's spirit is right ?

[unspun]

The mistake, the curse of Eden, the blasphemy of the ages and human conceits, lies in the countless philosophies that insist a balloon can inflate itself

Appreciate your analogy!

But I understand, the process of putrefaction causes the buildup of gasses.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Been there; done that; discarded it. But thanks for the thought.

Wesley is wrong on so many levels. I hope you read Locke's article and not just xzins' cut-and-paste attempt to usurp it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What substance is putrifying in the analogy?

[Vernon]

I'm sure the difference in understanding is why some are Wesleyans, others Calvinists, etc. As far as the "cut and paste" efforts, I'm not going there - that is what we (I) see Calvinists doing all the time. Thanks for the note.

[unspun]

Self-righteousness (aka, vainglory) including any attempts at inflating one's own baloon, as you mention.

So mightn't the question be not whether they may fill themselves up, but what with...?

Sigh....

[Dataman]

AG, what do we do with the fact that cult members will tell you the spirit was confirmed their faith ?