A Fireside Chat with Cardinal George

myself | 8 March 2004 | myself

[dangus]

>>The problems in the US began with Roe vs. Wade? That's a very shallow analysis and not reflective of a Catholic perspective.<<

The article does not say that the Amchurch's problems started with Roe v. Wade, but rather talks of Roe v. Wade was a critical *LEGAL* watershed. I don't get anywhere from the article that George is talking merely of the Catholic faith, but rather of the nation's values. True, Griswold was the iceberg of bad law, but Roe v. Wade was what sits above the waterline. Griswold was bad spiritually, in Roe v. Wade, we see that spiritual illness claim the lives of tens of millions.

>>He sees the Church as passive victim of circumstances. <<

Quite the OPPOSITE of what you suppose, George talks of legal suppression of the Catholic Church, but nowhere does he seem to suggest that this will be spiritually detrimental to those who remain within it. Rather, he seems to be echoing Ratzinger who suggests that a smaller church may well be a healthier one, once rid of the heretics.

[johnb2004]

How often do you think Cardinal George preaches about the evils of contraception? As often as he takes time to speak out against his brother bishops who promote and tolerate error.

[dangus]

I think you mean the USCCB. If so, Cardinal Bernadin was president of that throughout the 1980s and 90s, by which time he was archbishop of Chicago. I can't imagine him being head of the USCCB therefore thirty years earlier.

[dangus]

I was referring to the very Gandalf-like "photo" of the Pope (whom I've always thought probably would see more Frodo in himself, if he has read Lord of the Rings.)

Persecution tests the faith of Christians, but it is nothing to be hoped for. We are to strive to bring justice to this world, and persecution is injustice in itself, and in the United States, a terrible sign of the spread of injustice in general, and in a democracy, a terrible obstacle to Christians establishing justice for others. (Not that Christ does not work through all things! If persecution does happen, then Christ will be working through it!)

[NYer]

*The Catholic Church does not recognize marriages outside the Church. Since no gay couoples will be getting married in a church any time soon, this is a non-issue. As far as Catholicism is concerned, there is no such thing as gay marriage, and there never will be.*

Thought I would bump you to this thread. This is a sobering 'read' of where the church is headed in "this" society.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Perhaps he doesn't speak out enough, I will grant you that. But I think you also don't give him enough credit. He is not arguing for a passive victim Church, but a Church that must boldly live in the world and proclaim Christ Crucified, something that represents Hope in a world without it, something that represents Truth in a world without it. I think he would fight and die for The Church, unlike other bishops.

Sadly, he is spending a great deal of his time dealing with the aftermath of the scandal, the proble of which lies with his predecessors in the city of Chicago. At the Student Mass at the Cathedral he gave the most powerful homily I have ever heard, not the wishy-washy homily I was expecting. It was a powerful sermon on morality and Truth. The Truth as proclaimed by The Church and the duty of the Faithful to live in that Truth, to proclaim that Truth, and to understand that Truth. For an audience of many liberal touchy feel types, the homily was not what they had in mind.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

#47 is duplicate, please delete, God Bless.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

see post #46, true he did not speak directly on the issue, but the meaning of what he said was crystal clear.

[only1percent]

Canon law does indeed recognize marriages outside of the church -- these they call "natural" marriages. The naturally married have all of the prerogatives of the "spiritually" (in the Church) married; for example, a naturally married couple is not required to be remarried in the Church if they convert, there children are wholly legitmate (although legitimacy has no remaining significance in the U.S. or most other places).

The main practical difference is that a divorce(e) whose first marriage was outside the Church doesn't have to get an annulment to be remarried in the Church. A divorce(e) who was first married in the Church, got divorced, and then remarried outside the Church without an annulment, is subject to the various disabilities of that status, but his second marriage is still recognized as a natural (civil) marriage.

The church's view is basically that of the FMA -- marriage is the union of one man and one woman not married to other persons, so that it can't have even the status of natural marriage. It's a nullity, kind of like the union between a polygamist and his second and subsequent wives.

[johnb2004]

Look, in general George is better than most. He has some good throw away lines I have quoted here before. I do not think he is a stalwart, fierce, passionate defender of the faith. We need men like Burke, not politicians like George, Egan, O'malley who have some conservative credentials, but pander to the left or walk a line like a politician. My thought is he and others in his position need encouragement AND admonishment so they will crack down on dissent.

The line about him dealing with the homo abuse thing is a little disingenuous. He like all the others is forever giving excuses for not doing more to change the state of things in the Church. Enough is enough. Many will not brook anymore excuses for not standing up for Christ at every turn. When does he or others like him, ever give a talk about why so much heterodoxy is tolerated? He spoke about our Country and the troubles we face. Well, what has the Church done to help out? Where is the catechesis? How can Catholics live up to their faith if he is more concerned about being a politician than a Shepard?

[Maximilian]

Sadly, he is spending a great deal of his time dealing with the aftermath of the scandal, the proble of which lies with his predecessors in the city of Chicago.

Stephen Brady, found of Roman Catholic Faithful, does not agree with you on that one. He has a lot to say about George, and none of it is very complimentary. Brady was not closely involved with the abuse situation until Bernadin was gone, so his experience has been with George, not Bernadin, and he has encountered from George, stone-walling, deceit, and episcopal encouragement of gay groups in Chicago.

[WOSG]

"He finally closed with the need for a New Evangelization to reach out to the post-Christian World, Europe and America and bring them back. To do so, one must use both Faith (Bible and Tradition) and Reason. Again arguing that it is vitally important to the Faith"

So true... this deserves a WoW.

[heyheyhey]

a gay couple walks up to a church with a marriage license and demands they get married? How long till the state legislature demands that the churches marry gays?

It will not happen.

There are situations in which the state legislature doesn't supersede the religious law. An example from Catholic perspective, if a civilly divorced person (who was previously validly married in the Church) demands another marriage in the Church, he/she is refused and "no can do."

[WOSG]

"I have been predicting this for years. But I never thought of the government initiating it. I always figured the Amchurch modernist freaks would just get more outlandish with their gay masses and clown masses and abortions and divorces and cohabitating and contracepting and everything else they do at the same rate as the pagans around them, until we get a Pope who wants to be a shepherd and try to reign them in and make them come to resemble Catholics in some small way. I figured that would bring about a rebellion and a separation of the Amchurch from the Catholic Church."

Kind of like the Episcopalians, eh?

[johnb2004]

George has a conservative appeal for some reason. Do you remember where those 23 or so sodomite priests wrote that open letter? George hardly came down on them. He sent a letter that was more political than anything else. He should have thrown them out.

[heyheyhey]

However, there are probably 3 or 4 votes for stripping a "discriminatory" church of its tax-exempt status.

Using the tax-exempt status as a stick-and-a-carrot method to force the Church into submission to the state is an ugly sign of the coming end of religious freedom in the US. It's a method fitting Soviet Russia of the 1920's.

Let us pray for the conversion of communist Russia (in whatever country it happens to be these days).

[redgolum]

It will not happen.

I hope not, but then they said that about many things. If a judge decides that NOT granting a same sex marriage is a hate crime, then things will get interesting to say the least. The case in California shows that the wall between state intervention in Churches is being removed.

[heyheyhey]

Joseph Bernardin, Abp. of Cincinnati, that's who.

After being diagnosed with a terminal illness he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Lewinsky's boyfriend and joyfully accepted this rare "honor" in the time of raging partial birth abortion debate.

I'm no genius, but this may not help the Cardinal's beatification process. ;)

[heyheyhey]

Stephen Brady, found of Roman Catholic Faithful, does not agree with you on that one.

Sometimes even the best of Catholics have trouble telling friend from foe, it's part of the Council of Trent called "concupiscence."