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The "Passion" According to Isaiah
CBS News ^ | March 1st.2004 | Efraim Goldstein

Posted on 03/16/2004 5:02:53 PM PST by missyme

"One Jewish scholar, Claude Montefiore, explained: 'Because of the christological interpretation given to the chapter [Isaiah 53] by Christians it is omitted from the series of prophetical lessons for the Deuteronomy Sabbaths … the omission is deliberate and striking.' Why is the omission so striking? We've left out a portion from our own prophets, ostensibly because of what Christians think about it."

Isaiah 53 is a well-known passage of Scripture to the avid student of the Bible. But most people are not avid Bible students and have not read this controversial passage. A recent informal survey illustrates this point.(1) One hundred Jews on the streets of Tel Aviv were asked, "Who do you think the 53rd chapter of Isaiah describes?" Most were unfamiliar with the passage and were asked to read it before answering. After doing so, many conceded that they did not know to whom it referred.

Some thought it was Jesus, but when it sunk in that the passage was a citation from the Tenach, they were put off. Others shrugged off the passage as too difficult to understand.

Some repeated what they had heard from Jews more religious than themselves: that it referred to the Jewish people or perhaps even the gentile nations. All seemed to think that whomever it referred to, it wouldn't make much difference in their daily lives.

Israel is unique inasmuch as it is probably the only place on earth where you can spend a couple of hours on a public street and be assured of getting one hundred Jewish opinions. (Not that our people outside of Israel are adverse to giving opinions, it's just difficult to find such a high concentration of us in any one place.) But Israel is not unique when it comes to the Jewish response to Isaiah 53. There is really no consensus based on personal knowledge of the passage. People either have not read it or they have accepted a status quo interpretation, or both.

One might think the passage is obscure and irrelevant based on the fact that so many people are unfamiliar with it. That unfamiliarity in part stems from the fact that Isaiah 53 does not appear in the regular synagogue calendar readings. Yet it could be argued that the very fact that it is left out shouts out the importance of this passage. Even the reasons for omitting it point to the uniqueness of this passage. For example, one Jewish scholar, Claude Montefiore, explained: "Because of the christological interpretation given to the chapter by Christians it is omitted from the series of prophetical lessons for the Deuteronomy Sabbaths … the omission is deliberate and striking."(2)

Why is the omission so striking? Because when we finish the cycle of readings for the year, we haven't really finished it. We've left out a portion from our own prophets, ostensibly because of what Christians think about it. Since when does the Christian interpretation of Jewish Scripture have a bearing on what is or is not read in synagogues all over the world?

The omission is striking because of what Montefiore does not quite say. It is not simply because of the Christian interpretation that the Isaiah passage is omitted. After all, the services from which it is omitted are not for Christian ears. They are for Jews. What does that imply? The problem is not what Christians think of the passage. The problem (according to those who omitted the passage) is what Jews might think.

This portion of Scripture is highly controversial. Because contrary to what those surveyed felt, many people have looked into the questions this passage poses and have found that the answers are extremely relevant to their own lives. Are you ready to know why?

If you are willing to explore this "obscure" passage, see the inset below.

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants?

For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will jusitfy many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 52:13-53:12)

Those words were written over 2700 years ago. Yet many people who read them today find that the words seem to jump off the page. If nothing else, the chapter is packed with incredible drama, heroics and pathos. But many people find a personal challenge in these words that is interwoven with the questions: who is this person and what in the world was he doing?

They are questions worth considering for oneself, but it may also be helpful to see the progression of opinions given by our rabbis.

What do the early rabbis say?

Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer. Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:(3)

"Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

'Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).'"

"We find the same interpretation in the Babylonian Talmud:

What is his [the Messiah's] name? The Rabbis said: His name is "the leper scholar," as it is written, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Sanhedrin 98b)

"Similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah it states:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities."

"The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well:

There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel. All of these come and rest upon Him. And had He not thus lightened them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the trangression of the law; as it is written, "Surely our sicknesses he has carried." (Zohar II, 212a)

The early sages expected a personal Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy. No alternative interpretation was applied to this passage until the Middle Ages. And then, a completely different view was presented. This view was popularized by Jewish commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki), who lived one thousand years after Jesus.

Views on Isaiah 53 in the Middle Ages

Rashi held the position that the servant passages of Isaiah referred to the collective fate of the nation of Israel rather than a personal Messiah. Some rabbis, such as Ibn Ezra and Kimchi, agreed. However, many other rabbinic sages during this same period and later—including Maimonides—realized the inconsistencies of Rashi's views and would not abandon the original messianic interpretations.

The objections these rabbis put forth to Rashi's view were threefold: First, they showed the consensus of ancient opinion. Second, they pointed out that the text is grammatically in the singular tense throughout. For example, "He was despised and rejected…he was pierced for our transgressions…he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," and so on.

Third, they noted verse 8 of chapter 53. This verse presents some difficulty to those who interpret this passage as referring to Israel. It reads:

By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

Were the Jewish people, God forbid, ever "cut off from the land of the living"? No! God promises that Israel will live forever:

"Only if these decrees [the sun to shine by day, the moon and stars to shine by night, etc.] vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." (Jeremiah 31:36)

Likewise, it is impossible to say that "for the transgression of my people he was stricken" since "my people" clearly means the Jewish people. If verse 8 refers to Israel, then are we to read that Israel is stricken for Israel because of Israel's sin? How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same? Likewise, how can Israel be the servant, the one who "had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth" (Isaiah 53:9)? Israel is not now, nor ever has been, without sin—the Scriptures are replete with examples of Israel's disobedience.

All of these inconsistencies troubled many rabbis and they expressed their opinions of Rashi's view in no uncertain terms. Rabbi Moshe Kohen Iben Crispin of Cordova, who lived in the fourteenth century, said of the Israel as servant interpretation, it "distorts the passage from its natural meaning" and that Isaiah 53 "was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not." (4)


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To: h.a. cherev
Is it more important to you to be right? or is it ghoulish pride? Read the Book of Daniel, it's not my story but it is G-d's

Daniel:
This image of Antichrist corresponds directly to the Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9:27) when Antichrist breaks the seven year covenant with Israel and sets up an image in the Temple.

This, of course is also in complete agreement with the timing mentioned above, leaving exactly the three and one half years of the Great Tribulation.

Jesus also mentioned this event in His description of the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:15 ff). A speaking image could be the product of animation technologies, holography, genetic engineering, virtual reality, or a supernatural phenomenon.

This False Prophet has supernatural powers, obviously granted to him by Satan, like Pharaoh's magicians in the days of Moses who were able to mimic some of Moses' miracles (Exodus 7:11) and the first two of the Ten Plagues (Exodus 7:22; 8:7; 8:18).

He uses this power to make this horrific image breathe and talk. None of his powers should be construed to actually give life, which only God can do, but to deceive people into thinking that he could do so -- first by raising ('healing") Antichrist's wound, and then by making the image appear to be alive. This trick may be more than our modern technologies of animation and holography, but it is a deception just the same.

41 posted on 03/17/2004 1:58:56 PM PST by missyme
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To: h.a. cherev
Sorry, but there's another interpretation. It could very well be Israel - the Jewish people as a nation - rather than an individual man.

Of course there are other interpretations. Maybe the Jews had different interpretations at different times. I'm sure that's possible.

During the Roman occupation, it's pretty well established that they were looking for the messiah as someone who would lead them to liberation, which is more than indicative that they were looking for a person, a leader.

42 posted on 03/17/2004 2:05:44 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Salve Regina
You believe that the OT was the inspired word of God

Actually, I believe that the Torah was the Word of G-D given to Moses on Sinai. Not "inspired", not written decades after the fact, but simply G-D's law.

43 posted on 03/17/2004 2:09:26 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: h.a. cherev; freedom man4534
SO IF YOU BOTH READ THIS YOU WILL SEE IT PRETTY MUCH SAYS THIS IS THE MESSIAH YOU ARE WAITING FOR....

ELEVEN FULFILLMENTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY REQUIRED FOR THE END OF THE AGE

1. EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST

Revelation 9:16 "And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them."

An army of that size had never existed until China's army reached that number in the 1960's.

2. REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY)

Daniel 2:32-33 "The head of the statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay."

Daniel 2:40-43 "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. And in that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have the toughness of iron, and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery."



The fourth kingdom of iron is the Roman empire according to Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The two legs are the division of the Roman empire into an eastern portion called the Byzantine empire which ended in the 1400's and a western portion based in Rome which ended in the 400's. The nations of Europe since the Roman empire dissolved have never adhered or formed one empire but continue as separate nations, however, the European Union now has 15 Member States and is preparing for the accession of 13 eastern and southern European countries.

3. RETURN OF THE ONE PURE LANGUAGE, HEBREW, TO ISRAEL

Zephaniah 3:9 "For then I will return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

Prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.

4. REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM

For several end time prophecies to be fulfilled, the temple will have to be rebuilt.

Revelation 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the oly city for forty-two months."

Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolation, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."



Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."



Some archeologists believe that the temple mount is actually 340 feet south of the Dome of the Rock site, putting the Dome of the Rock within the Court of the Gentiles. This may be the court outside the temple that is left out.



There are many groups already working on preparations for the new temple. The blueprints are already done, the temple garments have been made, and there have already been attempts to lay the cornerstone of the temple. The only thing standing in the way of the construction of the new temple is Islam's third holiest site, the Dome of the Rock and government support for such an undertaking. Some possible scenarios for the rebuilding of the temple are as follows:



1. The persuasion and performing of miracles by the Antichrist and False Prophet convinces the Islamic world to approve the rebuilding.



2. The United Nations will negotiate the rebuilding of the temple following a war with the armies from the North (Russia and Islamic forces). This assumes that the war with the armies from the North is not the battle of Armageddon as some feel and that this attack occurs before the rapture or tribulation period begins. The supernatural destruction of the Russian army and Islamic forces will cause an outpouring of Christian worship and zeal amongst the Jewish people who will reconstruct the temple.

3. It is determined that the site of the first two temples is actually south of the Dome of the Rock, and the court of the gentiles (Dome of the Rock) will be left out of the 3rd temple.



A group in Israel called the Temple Mount Faithful have obtained most of the clothing, instruments and other equipment required for temple worship and are actively preparing for the laying of the third temple's cornerstone.

5. APPEARANCE OF THE RED HEIFER AFTER 2000 YEARS

Numbers 19:2-7 "This is the statute of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed. "You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence. Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. "Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned. "The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening."



A red heifer will be required to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers. In May 1997 the first Red Heifer was born in 2000 years. Another red Heifer was born in Israel in March of 2002.

6. INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."



Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today." Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.

7. RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL

Zephaniah 3:10-11 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings. In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain."


In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation. In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself. A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel.

8. THE RISE OF RUSSIA

Ezekiel 38:2,4,8 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords. After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them."



In order for some end time events to occur Russia will have to be a strong nation with a strong military.

9. RETURN OF RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL

Jeremiah 23:7-8 "Therefore behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, when they will no longer say, as the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt, but as the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I have driven them. Then they will live on their own soil."



In the 1970's and 1980's there was a mass exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia. In 1999 the Associated Press reported a dramatic increase in the number of Jewish immigrants from Russia, bringing the largest number of Russian Jews to Israel since the early 1990's.

10. TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST

Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."



On May 10, three members of a family in Florida became the first people to receive the biochip implant. Each device, made of silicon and called a VeriChip, is a small radio transmitter about the size of a piece of rice that is injected under a person's skin. It transmits a unique personal ID number whenever it is within a few feet of a special receiver unit. VeriChip's maker describes it as "a miniaturized, implantable, radio frequency identification device (RFID) that can be used in a variety of security, emergency and healthcare applications."



Is the biochip the mark of the beast to be used by the antichrist? We can't really know. What is significant is that people are being softened to the idea of a mark or an implant as a means of maintaining security, providing medical information, and regulating a more interdependent world. As attitudes change, fears subside, and people are convinced of the need for such a mark, the true mark of the beast will be easily introduced to the world by the antichrist.

11. PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT

The United Nations, World Trade Organization, International Criminal Court, UN peacekeeping/police force, numerous UN NGO's, and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government. We now have the communications technology, transportation, and the pro-globalization media necessary to usher in the one world government headed by the antichrist. The increasing terrorist threat and the middle east conflict will only speed up the formation of this governing body as fear and promises of better security make more people willing to give up their national sovereignty for global governance.

12. INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD

Revelation 11:3, 7-10 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."



Television and the 24-hour news networks make it possible for people around the world to see the dead prophets and rejoice at their deaths.



Luke 21:28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."


45 posted on 03/17/2004 2:15:04 PM PST by missyme
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To: h.a. cherev
Don't you beleive that it's time to look to the future and realize what you have to look forward to?
46 posted on 03/17/2004 2:16:43 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
Is it more important to you to be right?

I could ask the same question of you.

47 posted on 03/17/2004 2:19:57 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
Don't you beleive that it's time to look to the future and realize what you have to look forward to?

I look back to learn from the past and look forward in anticipation. Why do you ignore the part of your past which is uncomfortable for you?

48 posted on 03/17/2004 2:22:42 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: Salve Regina
I was just throwing the jerk's rude, obnoxious words back in his face.

Why? What were you trying to accomplish and did it work?

49 posted on 03/17/2004 2:25:06 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
My Salvation does not have to do about being "Right" I could care less about being right I am not challenging
G-d .
I believe in TORAH with all my heart, I have also broke many of TORAH'S commandments. I am a sinner, sure I do not Kill people, use G-d's name in vain, steal commit adultery, but I have not honored some of the commandments and find some of them very hard to obey..Now based on that statement I do not DESERVE to be part of G-d's Holy Kingdom, therefore I ask Jesus into my life my heart and pray for forgiveness.

So on Judgement Day, G-d will know I sinned agaisnt TORAH yet I accepted his Son to be my reedemer so I may have a place in G-d Kingdom... I guess for you Judgement Day will be that you obeyed every commandment of TORAH, therefore
G-d will place his own judgement on you
50 posted on 03/17/2004 2:26:38 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
SO IF YOU BOTH READ THIS YOU WILL SEE IT PRETTY MUCH SAYS THIS IS THE MESSIAH YOU ARE WAITING FOR....

Shouting won't help. Neither will posting a book for me to read. Try the KISS approach.

51 posted on 03/17/2004 2:26:55 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
LOL..xoxox
I am not screaming I leave my caps on sometimes...

I will say this to you...
Do I want you to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Reedemer, Sure I do! I want everyone to have a place in G-d's Kingdom especially Freepers!
52 posted on 03/17/2004 2:31:27 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
Now based on that statement I do not DESERVE to be part of G-d's Holy Kingdom,

If you feel that way, fine. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. However, despite my sins, I feel differently. Consequently, I do not need to...

therefore I ask Jesus into my life my heart and pray for forgiveness.

You see, I have another way to obtain forgiveness and don't need an intermediary.

So on Judgement Day, G-d will know I sinned agaisnt TORAH yet I accepted his Son to be my reedemer so I may have a place in G-d Kingdom...

So despite your multitude of sins, all you have to do is accept JC as a redeemer and you'll have a place? How convenient....So if Adolf Hitler, y'mach sh'mo, on his deathbed accepted JC into his heart as his redeemer, you feel he would have a place in G-D's kingdom?

I guess for you Judgement Day will be that you obeyed every commandment of TORAH, therefore G-d will place his own judgement on you

Well, you can believe that about me if it makes you feel secure in your faith. I happen to think you're wrong.

53 posted on 03/17/2004 2:34:26 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
Do I want you to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Reedemer, Sure I do! I want everyone to have a place in G-d's Kingdom especially Freepers!

But you do not seem able to accept the notion that I do have a place already - without JC.

54 posted on 03/17/2004 2:36:39 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
Please take a look at Luke 9:49-50 and then come back and explain where you came up with the idea that anyone who does not follow Jesus as you do will be going to Hell.
55 posted on 03/17/2004 2:37:06 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: h.a. cherev
What is the wage for "Sin" death right? Is that not what happened in the Garden of Eden? Adolf Hitler, Napolean, Jefferey Dahmer, and all the Evil men who have walked this earth, and our dead will have to answer to G-d for there Sins... Jesus says everyone who accepts him has a place in G-d's Kingdom..As human beings are we to judge after death what happens to the evil people? We can Judge in this life but if Adolf Hitler is in G-d's Kingdom I will not question G-d why he is there will you?
56 posted on 03/17/2004 2:41:22 PM PST by missyme
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To: Dog Gone
During the Roman occupation, it's pretty well established that they were looking for the messiah as someone who would lead them to liberation, which is more than indicative that they were looking for a person, a leader.

Isn't that true of all times? Aren't all of us looking for a leader today? But is that what is meant by Isiah 53? According to the writer, there seems to be only one possible explanation. But he's mistaken. There are others.

57 posted on 03/17/2004 2:41:30 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme; h.a. cherev
Pope John Paul II said as follows:
"Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions postively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior."
58 posted on 03/17/2004 2:42:03 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: missyme
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org

Jews believe that Jesus was not the messiah.

Many people believe that the only difference between Jews and Christians is that Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but the Jews do not. What they fail to understand is that there is a whole theology that supports the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. Jews, because of what the Bible says, sees this theology as diametrically the opposite of what the Bible says.

IN SHORT... Christians identify Messiah with Jesus and define him as God incarnated as a man, and believe he died for the sins of humanity as a blood sacrifice. This means that one has to accept the idea that one person's death can atone for another person's sins. However, this is opposed to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 24:26, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin," which is also expressed in Exodus 32:30-35, and Ezekiel 18. The Christian idea of the messiah also assumes that God wants, and will accept, a human sacrifice. After all, it was either Jesus-the-god who died on the cross, or Jesus-the-human. Jews believe that God cannot die, and so all that Christians are left with in the death of Jesus on the cross, is a human sacrifice. However, in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls human sacrifice an abomination, and something He hates: "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." All human beings are sons or daughters, and any sacrifice to God of any human being would be something that God would hate. The Christian idea of the messiah consists of ideas that are UnBiblical.





A FULLER EXPLANATION...

You must understand that both Jews and Christians use the word messiah, but the meaning of the word is different in each faith.The Christian understanding is that the Messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin. But we are taught in our Bible that no one can die for the sins of another. In Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]

In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses believes that, perhaps, he can atone for the sin of the People of Israel, when they made the Golden Calf. He tried to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. When Moses tells God to write Moses out of His book, he means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Eternal plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [ Exodus 32:30-35]

The whole of chapter 18 of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin. Further, this chapter of Ezekiel teaches us that all we have to do for God's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God will forgive us. No where in this chapter does it say that we have to have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. (But more on this later.)

The word of the Eternal came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Eternal God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Eternal God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]

So, the Bible is clear, no one can die for the sins of another, and this means that Jesus cannot die for the sins committed by someone else.

The Christian idea of the messiah is that Jesus was the blood sacrifice that saves everyone from his or her sin. But who, EXACTLY died on that cross? If it was Jesus-the-god, then how can God die? If it was only Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus is a human sacrifice. And what, EXACTLY does God say about human sacrifice in the TaNaCH?

In Deuteronomy, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him!:

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

In Jeremiah, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind!:

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]

We see the same thing in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]

And yet we are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these very pagans believe?" Everyone is a son or a daughter. God tells us that any human sacrifice is an abomination, something He hates, and something so horrible, that it would never even come into His mind to demand it of us. And human sacrifice was practiced by the pagans.

You must understand that the Christian definition to the term, Messiah, is pagan. How do all Christians, define the term messiah? They define it exactly as the pagans understood their dying/saving gods and heroes. The ancient world is filled with examples. Mithra, Adonis, Dionysis, Attis, Ra, and many others were born in the Winter, died in the Spring, and came back to life. Along with this, they believed that their followers would not die, but have immortal life, since the death of the hero/god acted as their sacrifice for their sins. The pagan world was filled with gods who were the product of a human mother and a god for the father. Even Hercules had Zeus for a father, and a human mother.

When the earliest Christians would come into the synagogues and missionize, they would get kicked out. They were not allowed to stay and preach, they were rejected, because their message was pagan, was recognized as such by the Jews, and they were removed and separated from the Jewish people as a result.

So how have we Jews, who invented the term, always defined the term Messiah?

The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said.But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of a union between a Human woman and God, rather than two HUMAN parents, as was Hercules, and Dionysis, as well as many other pagan gods.
The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5). But Jesus's lineage cannot go through his human father, according to Christian theology, as Jesus's father was not Joseph the husband of Mary. According to Christian theology, Jesus's father was God.
The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was a descendant of Nathan, another son of King David, and not a descendant of King David through King Solomon.
The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.
According to the Jewish definition of the term, the Real Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove because these changes take place in the real world. It is for this task that the real messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah -- one who is anointed. These changes, that one will be able to see and perceive in the real world, include:

The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37.
The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.
The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above.)
The Messiah brings about the universal world-wide conversion of all peoples to Judaism, or at least to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of God is God (Isaiah 11:9). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.
The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9). It isn't.
The Messiah gathers to Israel, all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24). Many of the ten lost tribes remain lost.
The Messiah rebuilds The Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28). It hasn't been rebuilt.
There will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30). People starve to death every day.
After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8). People die every day.
Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6);
The nations of the earth will help the Jews, materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12;
The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);
All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12);
The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15)
Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12);
Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13);
The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been wrong, that the Jews have been right, and that the sins of the Gentile nations, their persecutions and the murders they committed, have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53)
These Biblically based changes in the world are very real, very perceivable, very noticeable, and knowable. But the changes that Christianity claims were made by Jesus are not perceivable at all. They must be accepted on faith, and faith alone. How can one know that Jesus died for their sins, except by faith? How can one know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, except by the faith in the historical truth of the Christian's New Testament? There is no birth certificate. The changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism are very provable, but the changes made by the Messiah, Jesus, according to Christianity can only be taken on faith.

Even Christians recognize that none of the changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism as read in the Bible have not happened yet. This is why Christianity invented the idea of a Second Coming. The real Messiah has no need to come a second time to do those things he must do the first time around in order to actually be the Messiah.

Christians also believe that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, that one who does not have such a blood sacrifice will die in their sins, and go to hell, except for the sacrifice of Jesus.

This, too, is UnBiblical. The Bible describes blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin in the Book of Leviticus. But it is in Leviticus itself, in the middle of the discussion of the sin sacrifices, that we are taught that we do not need a blood sacrifice to be forgiven for our sins. It was very expensive for any family to offer an animal for a blood sacrifice. The offering of turtledoves and pigeons were the cheapest of offerings. If one could not even afford this cheapest of offerings, was forgiveness then granted only to the rich? In Leviticus we are told that one who sins can bring flour, which has no blood and no life as their sacrifice, and God forgives them!

But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering. Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Eternal: it is a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. [Leviticus 5:11-13]

Furthermore, read the Book of Jonah. In Jonah, the People of Ninevah do three things in order to be forgiven by God. They fast, they pray for forgiveness, and they stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives them! This is exactly what we do on Yom Kippur, we fast, we pray for forgiveness, and, hopefully, we stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God forgives us. And what book do we read on Yom Kippur afternoon? The Book of Jonah!

And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Ninevah, by the decree of the King and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock taste anything; let them not feed nor drink water; but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God; yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did not do it. [Jonah 3:7-10]

Please notice that Jonah tells us that God saw their WORKS, their deeds, how they turned from their evil ways, and God forgave them. It does not say that God saw their blood sacrifice, they never offered one. It does not say that God saw that they had the right faith, but rather it says that God saw their deeds.

There are plenty of other examples that show that we do not need a blood sacrifice for our sins, in order for God to forgive us. (For example, the giving of incense in Numbers 16:47; the giving of jewelry in Numbers 31:50; and, for Isaiah, a live coal on the lips in Isaiah 6:6-7). However, if I can show only one time, as we find in the Book of Jonah, where God did not need a blood sacrifice, or a sacrifice of any kind, it proves that we do not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

Quite simply, we Jews invented the term, "messiah." When we are told by those of the Christian faith (which includes the "Jews" for Jesus and the Messianic "Jews" and the "Hebrew" Christians) that our definition, the Jewish definition of "messiah" is incorrect, it is like someone who does not speak English telling a person whose native tongue is English that the word "electrician" means someone who fixes the plumbing.


59 posted on 03/17/2004 2:42:54 PM PST by freedom man4534
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