New face found on Turin shroud (MORE EVIDENCE IT IS FAKE)

London Telegraph ^ | (Filed: 13/04/2004) | Roger Highfield, Science Editor

[RaceBannon]

New face found on Turin shroud Roger Highfield, Science Editor (Filed: 13/04/2004)

The haunting image of a tall, bearded man bearing the marks of crucifixion that adorns the Turin shroud has been called one of the greatest religious hoaxes - one that has intrigued scientists and believers for decades.

Yesterday, the respected Institute of Physics in London renewed speculation about the revered object by announcing that a "ghostly image" had been discovered on the back.

The cloth has been hailed by some as the burial shroud of Christ but, in a milestone study 15 years ago, three teams concluded after carbon dating that it originated from between 1260 and 1390.

It led to the widespread conclusion that the shroud was a pious hoax created for the pilgrimage business.

This is an excerpt to the original article. Click on the link above

[RaceBannon]

However, the enhancing procedure did not uncover the full body image as it appears on the front side.

The presence of a face on both sides of the shroud would seem an obvious feature: one idea, put forward by Prof Stephen Mattingly of the University of Texas Health Science Centre in San Antonio is that the image was created by bacteria that caused a stain in the cloth, so presumably it stained both sides to some extent.

But this is not the case for the shroud, said Prof Fanti. "On both sides, the face image is superficial, involving only the outermost linen fibres. There is nothing in the middle. It is extremely difficult to make a fake with this feature."

Difficult, but not impossible.

[Swordmaker]

Shroud of Turin PING!

This has an altered title because it was posted by RaceBannon, who believes the shroud is a fraud. The article does not support his headline.

If you wish to be included or deleted from the Shroud of Turin Ping list, please Freepmail me.

Swordmaker

[Swordmaker]

Difficult, but not impossible.

Nice ex-cathedra pronouncement, Race... now, MAKE ONE! Duplicate the shroud, prove it can be done, "difficultly, but not impossibly."

[polemikos]

Race, Race, Race,

Still promoting your unbiblical nonsense?
If you'd like, I can point to you to a web site
that will show you how to construct a logical argument.

"And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band
was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli'sha;
and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli'sha,
he revived, and stood on his feet." -- 2 Kgs 13:21

[RaceBannon]

Hey, I have no idea how it was made!

But, there is too much Biblical evidence that it is NOT the shroud of Jesus.

the face cloth that Lazarus and Jesus had would have been on under the shroud, so, there would be no face image on the shroud from blood.

Also, and I never thought of this before, when a person is dead, their heart stops beating. The shroud is blood stained, but not all over like a person wipped extensively over the whole body.

Jesus image would have been marred beyond recognition according to Scripture:
(Isa 52:14 KJV) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

So, the image of an almost handsome man, that would not be the Jesus of the Bible.

Nor would the European facial features be the Jesus of the Scriptures.

Just because there is a man's image on the cloth, and, as the article says, the image is on the outside of the fibers, not THROUGH them, that neither proves nor disproves who made it or how or why, but if a cloth was laying on a person who was draining blood, it would have SOAKED the cloth through and through.

The image in 2-d, when the cloth would be wrapped in a circle around the body, that is another strong argument against, but that is also an old one.

This is just an idol, that's all, there is NO PROOF it was Jesus, nor is there any consistant proof of it even being as old as it has to be to be Jesus burial cloth.

[RaceBannon]

stop lying, that is the original title, and can be found using the original title

and you know it

you just want to make false accusations I guess

All I did was add a comment to the original title

[B4Ranch]

Race, When someone dies the heart does stop beating. The blood sinks from the upper portion of the corpse and will continue to drain from the body if there is an equalizer. (hole in the skin that prevents a vacuum within the artery or vein)

How quick this occurs all depends on the blood pressure at the time of death and the surrounding temperature. The closer to 98/99 degrees the longer the blood will drain.

If there is no exit wound for the blood to actually drain from the corpse, the blood will seek a level balance within the corpse. If there is no equalizer hole the arteries will collapse and prevent the majority of the blood from draining out of the corpse.

[NYer]

"I firmly wish that my face reflecting the intimate pains of my soul, the suffering and love of my heart, be more honored! Whoever gazes upon me already consoles me." (Our Lord Jesus Christ to Sister Pierina)

The image our Lord has chosen is from the shroud. Notice the swelling under the eyes.

Novena in Honor  of the Most Holy Face of Jesus

The promises of our Lord Jesus Christ to those devoted to His face.

1. I will grant them contrition so perfect that their very sins shall be changed in My sight into jewels of precious gold.
2. None of these persons shall ever be separated from Me.
3. In offering My Face to My Father, they will appease His anger and they will purchase as with celestial coin, pardon for poor sinners.
4. I will open My mouth to plead with My Father to grant all the petitions that they will present to Me.
5. I will illuminate them with My light, I will consume them with My love and I will render them fruitful of good works.
6. They will, as the pious Veronica, wipe My adorable Face outraged by sin, and I will imprint My divine Features in their souls.
7. At their death, I will renew in them the image of God effaced by sin.
8. By resemblance to My Face, they will shine more than many others in eternal life and the brilliancy of My Face will fill them with joy.

Sorry, Race, once again, you are wrong!

[Graymatter]

"More evidence it's fake"...LOL. Actually it is more evidence that excludes fakery. Plus more modern experts who can't tell us how, when, and what.

If it's really the shroud of Jesus, it's one more miracle that it's still around, regardless how the image came to be on it.

(Thanks for the ping, Swordmaker---and your remarkable patience with the skeptics around here.)

[Swordmaker]

the face cloth that Lazarus and Jesus had would have been on under the shroud, so, there would be no face image on the shroud from blood.

Why? This is mere assumption on your part.

Once the body was placed on the Shroud that would soon cover the face and the entire body, the only reason the sudarium would have been kept with the burial is that it contained blood that according to Jewish custom and belief had to be buried with the body... but it did not have to be kept on the face because the Shroud would now cover the face.

The Hypothesis

The Bible describes the post resurection state of that piece of cloth as being rolled up apart from the other grave clothes.

"And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." John 20:7, The Holy Bible, King James Version

I propose that the "napkin" was used "about (around) the head (face)" as a rolled up bandage-like binding to keep the jaw closed in death, after it was used as a temporary shroud of the face while the body was being taken down off the cross.

People often make quick temporary bandages by taking a rectangular cloth, holding it by opposite corners and flipping the dangling triangles up and over multiple times to make a roll, longer than the cloth would be if rolled horizontally from one side to the other. This could then be placed under the beard and chin, around the head by the ears and the ends tied together in a knot on top of the head.

The Scenario

After the resurrection, still under the Shroud, Jesus works his hands free from the binding strip keeping them folded in front over his groin, pulls the Shroud off his body, sits up, then reaches down and unties the binding cloth strip keeping his legs together. Freed, he stands up, moves a short distance away, reaches up and pulls the jaw binding off his head and drops it, still rolled up, away from the other grave cloths and leaves the tomb.

The Sudarium of Oviedo

"One of the relics held by the cathedral in the town of Oviedo, in the north of Spain, is a piece of cloth measuring approximately 84 x 53 cm. There is no image on this cloth. Only stains are visible to the naked eye, although more is visible under the microscope. The remarkable thing about this cloth is that both tradition and scientific studies claim that the cloth was used to cover and clean the face of Jesus after the crucifixion." - The Sudarium of Oviedo: its History and Relationship to the Shroud Of Turin, Mark Guscin, B.A. M.Phil., Copyright 1997.

The Sudarium of Oviedo (pictured above), is a cloth that bears blood stains of the same blood type (AB) as the blood stains on the Shroud of Turin. Computerized comparisons and Polarized Image Overlay studies (A. Whanger, et al) have shown this cloth to have over 120 points of coincidence (matching) with the blood stains on the Shroud.

"Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck." ibid, Guscin

Conversion of the Sudarium to a Binding Cloth

A simple calculation tells us the Sudarium of Oviedo, if rolled as I described above, would make a binding bandage 99 cm long. The circumference around the head from under the chin, over the top and back averages approximately 60 cm. If the Sudarium had been rolled in this manner, it would have made a binding strip more than long enough to circle the face in this manner and leave enough extra to make a knot on top of the head, or under the chin.

This fairly broad roll of cloth would be the cause of the hair on the shroud being pushed somewhat foreward of where one would expect gravity to pull it on a supine figure. Forensic tests using such jaw bindings on persons with long hair have found that hair stiffened with dried blood and sweat is pushed forward in just this way, exactly as shown on the Shroud of Turin.

Conclusion

This usage of the Sudarium of Oviedo as one of the bindings necessary for burial, completely logical to the needs of the moment in the tomb, meets the scriptural "napkin, that was about his head" without obscuring the face and hair from the Cause, chemical, physical or metaphysical, that created the image on the shroud. It is economical in that a blood stained cloth that must be kept with the body in burial according to Jewish law, is reused for a burial purpose, instead of using a clean, newly purchased cloth. It explains why the "napkin" or "face cloth", "sweat cloth", "face shroud", Kercheif", or any of the other words various Biblical translations render the Koinic Greek word "soudarion" which is actually a Greek adoption of an old Aramaic word, was found apart from the other cloths.

[Swordmaker]

stop lying, that is the original title, and can be found using the original title

I see no "(More evidence it is FAKE)" any where in the original title. Therefore it is NOT the original title and does not characterize the thrust of the article. It is an editorial addition to the title of the article. Such editorializing is dishonest in a title...

[BlackVeil]

In this article it says:

However, it does seem to require an act of faith to see the face in an image reproduced in the paper by Giulio Fanti, professor of mechanical and thermic measurements at Padua University.

Apparently, the image has to be enhanced and tweaked a lot, in order to be "seen." Hummmm. People have seen other things in the shroud as well, there were claims that one could see a cup, a spear, all sorts of things (except my homepage, which got left off.)

[Fool 4 Christ whos fool RU?]

WHAT A CROCK! TALK ABOUT BS! FOR ONE THING GOD THE FATHER IS NOT MAD AT YOU AND ME. WE DO NOT NEED A SAINT OR A MOTHER TO GO AND CALM THE FATHER OR JESUS. THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN CHRIST AND THE FATHER AND THAT IS CHRIST, THERE IS NO MEDIATOR BETWEEN CHRIST AND THE SINNER OR SAINT. YOU CAN ADORE THE FACE OF CHRIST ALL DAY LONG AND STILL GO TO HELL. ADORATION WILL NOT BRING YOU SALVATION!

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Little angry now geesh, pipe down.

[Fool 4 Christ whos fool RU?]

Yes a little PO when people try to feed others BS for the truth. How many people would go to hell with the advice in your post? That adoration of an image would bring salvation.
Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV)

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

My post, you are a little blind my friend.

[Fool 4 Christ whos fool RU?]

Pardon me, I guess I am a little blind in my indignation to the post by NYer. Thought your comment to pipe down to this very umbilical bs was a response from him or her. I suppose you have no problem with this heresy?

[Mountain Streams]

This reply is for everyone. It seems to me that everyone is being distracted from what the focus is supposed to be on. What matters is worshipping God and that He sent His Son to die for us. A piece of cloth makes no difference and will not get us to heaven. Too many material things are being worshipped.

[AnAmericanMother]

Odd to be siding with RB, but I remain skeptical.

One thing everyone is forgetting is that a contemporary bishop condemned this as a pious forgery. (I've heard the argument that, well, the bishop was jealous -- but, aside from the pure speculation that entails, the bish could have done what thousands of other bishops have done over the centuries and co-opted it for his cathedral. In those days, bishops had real, political, temporal power.) And the Church HAS condemned thousands of fragments of the True Cross, bits of cloth, bones, and other miscellaneous items as frauds.

As a historian rather than a scientist, I trust contemporary evidence a great deal more than speculation and inconclusive tests 800 years after the fact.

[Aquinasfan]

Hidden beneath a piece of Holland cloth that was sewn by nuns in 1534, after a fire had blackened parts of it, the reverse side of the shroud was fully scrutinised for the first time in 2002, when the 14ft linen was unstitched from the Holland cloth. The back surface of the shroud was photographed in detail.

"When I saw the pictures, I was caught by the perception of a faint image on the back surface of the shroud. I thought that perhaps there was more that wasn't visible to the naked eye," said Prof Fanti.

"Though the image is very faint, features such as nose, eyes, hair, beard and moustache are visible."

However, the enhancing procedure did not uncover the full body image as it appears on the front side.

If anything, this report only seems to provide more evidence as to the Shroud's authenticity.