Conversion Journey update(Vanity)

[TheStickman]

After Mass today, the Deacon approached wife and I to tell us he had some *good news* regarding my wife's annulment paperwork. It seems her 1st marriage may be deemed invalid according to form. He then looks to me and tells me my annulment procedure (he and I have appointment this week to begin filling out the inital questionaire) will have to run the normal full course. No surprise there. However, he then tells us the parish priest wishes us to wait a full year (a year and a half or more actually) before attending RCIA classes. This means a 2 year wait for Confirmation into the Church. Does the priest take the time to tell us the reasons for this? Nope. The Deacon says something about keeping the classes from being disrupted (how in the world would our attendance be disruptive? We've already sat in on 2 classes) is the reason the parish priest wishes us to wait...but does the priest take any time to explain it all to us? Nope. I remain convinced I am being called to join the catholic Church of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, I am thouroughly confused about what in the world is going on here. The more I think about it, the angier and more confused I become. Having been around the block a time or 2 I find myself questioning if we are being *jerked around*. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions on how to procede. We appreciate your prayers and hope you will continue to remember us.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Yes, but a marriage between two pagans, in which one of them decides to become Catholic, and the other does not, can be dissolved via the Pauline Privilege. And that is a routine approval given by the local bishop. (Canon 1143)

Is it the same as the Petrine Privilege? I still do not understand either one.

Catholics who marry outside this form have not contracted a valid marriage.

Okay, so siunevada's friend is not in a valid marriage because the husband was Catholic. Why then is the marriage of two non-Catholics married outside the Church considered valid?

Should siunevada's friend get a legal divorce?

[sinkspur]

Is it the same as the Petrine Privilege? I still do not understand either one.

The Pauline Privilege is a historical elaboration of 1 Corinthians 7:10-16, where Paul states that, in the case of the marriage of two unbaptized, one of whom later becomes a Christian without the consent of the other, the convert is no longer bound to remain with the non-Christian. It was used frequently during the missionary expansion of the Church from the 16th to 19th centuries.

The Petrine Privilege is also known as the "privilege of the Faith." It is not found in Canon Law, but developed as a pastoral practice in the US after the promulgation of the first Code of Canon Law in 1917. the Petrine Privilege allows the Pope to dissolve a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian which by the very nature of the bond, was not sacrament in the first place. There has to be good reason for such papal action: One of the parties to the first marriage (presumably severed in divorce) wishes to marry a Catholic in a second ceremony, or the non-Christian party wants to become a Catholic and remarry.

They are similiar, but the Petrine Privilege involves a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian, whereas the Pauline Privilege involves two non-Christians, one of whom becomes a Catholic. Both apply to prima facie non-Christian marriages.

Okay, so siunevada's friend is not in a valid marriage because the husband was Catholic. Why then is the marriage of two non-Catholics married outside the Church considered valid.

The Church assumes they are valid, unless proven otherwise (the reason for the annulment process), just as the Church assumes the validity of baptisms in other Christian denominations who use proper form and matter.

Should siunevada's friend get a legal divorce?

That is a matter between those two people, and no one should suggest otherwise, unless one wants to be sued for alienation of affection.

[Jeff Chandler]

Your frustration is understandable, and that priest's attitude is compounding the situation.

My advice would be to continue praying, attending Mass, and studying the Faith. Patience and persistence are sorely needed in situations such as yours.

As for the priest, if you are involved in the Church for any length of time, you will come across priests who are lacking in people skills. Many of them are good, holy men who happen to have that particular human flaw. On the other hand, you may come across seemingly caring, compassionate priests who are quite popular, yet are actually evil. The important thing is to not take it personally or allow it to impede your journey in Faith.

Jesus's Church is bigger than the frail humans you may encounter in Her.

Oh, and don't forget to pray for that priest.

[dansangel]

Your attitude is what will make the process successful and you obviously have the *right* one!

Thank you - I will keep you in my prayers.

[dansangel]

((((visualops))))

Well, a lot of the process *was* very private.

*One* of the hurdles, however, that we encountered along the way was that the Tribunal threw in the requisite of several *expensive* marriage sessions with a counselor. When our pastor found out that money was an obstacle that was only adding to the delay, he offered to split the cost with us. It helped move things along somewhat.

[TheStickman]

I assure you, had the Deacon let us know it was an 18 to 24 month process we'd be informed and have a real sense of what was going on with all of this. Learning you have to wait for something isn't nearly as bad as not being told why you have to wait.

[visualops]

Well, I hope they don't ask for that...we've already been married 7 years. Even though our previous marriages have put a blot on it, it's not like we just met. Plus, we haven't got any money lol
Thanks for the input :)

[visualops]

FR is a Godsend in more ways than one, and we very much appreciate all the help and prayers from everyone here.

Regarding "need to know", I realize it's my perception, just trying to get across how I feel.

I'm surprized regarding your comment on Stickman's annulment, the Deacon gave us the opposite impression, that mine might be simple and his complex. They said they have to contact the ex-spouses...despite that we both have issues with contact of that nature with them, and neither are Catholic, and my ex has remarried.

The thing is, we *do* want to attend the RCIA this September, even if we can't get Confirmed and complete the whole thing at the end. The priest is the one supposedly saying we *shouldn't*, that we can take some "adult classes" if we want. I'm not sure why we would have to take it again though.

My thought is we need all of us (Us and Deacon & priest)get together and get it all straightened out.

[TheStickman]

Methinks you mis-read sinkspur's post. He's actually suggesting your annulment can be done in a day and mine will take 18 to 24 months. Though that still seems incredibly long since there are no witnesses and my ex is apt to just ignore the questionaire when it is sent.

[Salvation]

Thanks for the clarification there. It's makes more sense to me now.

[Salvation]

**Oh, and don't forget to pray for that priest.**

Good advice for all of us!

[sinkspur]

I'm surprized regarding your comment on Stickman's annulment, the Deacon gave us the opposite impression, that mine might be simple and his complex

My phrasing was poor; yours will be simple, and Stickman's will be more complex.

[visualops]

OK, I musta missed the semi-colon, your phrasing is fine.
I'm not sure how simple mine will be, there is some question over my conversion to Greek Orthodox. The Deacon had initially told me it wasn't valid, but now I don't know.

[sinkspur]

I'm not sure how simple mine will be, there is some question over my conversion to Greek Orthodox. The Deacon had initially told me it wasn't valid, but now I don't know.

He said your conversion wasn't valid? Were you baptized?

If so, then it was valid.

[visualops]

:::sigh:::

That's what I was afraid of. But, since I was never confirmed before, are the steps I have to take really any different?

[sinkspur]

But, since I was never confirmed before, are the steps I have to take really any different?

You will make an affirmation of Faith, and be confirmed, and receive your first Eucharist, when you reach the end of your RCIA journey.

[visualops]

OK, thanks for all your help.

[dsc]

"They said they have to contact the ex-spouses..."

Eh? I had my marriage to a Japanese person regularized, and they never contacted my spouse at all.

I guess they're used to having one spouse convert and the other not here in Japan.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Nevertheless there are annulment possibilities for non-Catholics becoming Catholic, which are not options for Catholics. Decisions may be arrived at "In favour of the Faith".

The Petrine Privilege! The Church has the power to dissolve legitimate non-sacramental marriages for a just reason.

[TheStickman]

Welp, today's meeting with the Deacon cleared up several issues. He apologized for not clearly explaning things. The 18 to 24 month time frame for annulments is the norm for this particular diocese. That's not a short time to wait for anything--let alone being able to partake of the Sacraments. However, it pales compared to the very real possibility my own annulment might not be granted at all. That possibility has been in the back of my mind all along, but the Deacon brought it to the front in a very clear fashion.

The Deacon shared with me there are dozens of people in similar situations who've been attending church for DECADES without being permitted via past marriage issues to partake of the Sacraments. Some have no choice but to wait for their ex to pass away. Anyway, if it comes to that we will deal with it and with God's Guidance we shall endure.

Thank you all for your prayers.