Author Claims To Debunk Rapture Theory Popularized By 'Left Behind'

Agape Press ^ | May 5, 2004 | By Allie Martin

[Seven_0]

"What is this , word play? I said it is "Taken" as in judgment"

Yes, this is word play. Either Noah represents the one taken in Matthew 24.41-42, or Noah represents the one left behind. That is how parables work. It cannot be both ways.

I say that Noah was left behind, the analogy works in both directions. That is how we know that this is not the rapture, because the believers are left behind in Matthew 24:41-42. However this is the opposite of Revelation 14, where the unbelievers are left behind for judgement.

[Sorensen]

Teleosis, in Your post 133, you start out with, quote,
" This corruption of the Masoretic (?) text,is a result of a copy error (?)in the text," and "The KJV shows the addition by inserting the brother of".
What "Brainwashing Cemetary" called Seminary, have you attended ? And ,then you draw inferrance that "both versions" are corrupt. Are you out of your cotton pickin' mind ?

You talk to me about "Declerative statements" ? Your whole
day has been nothing but "declerative statements". Then you say in in this post,that all you want to do is talk about the Rapture, and you start two posts down (#135) talking about the Seal /Trumpet judgments, of which it is obvious to any minister , like myself , that you know nothing of, simply by the erroneous goblydygook you posted in #135.

So let me "Reign-in" and stop this galloping Horse right here. With regards to your comment on "copy error" of the
KJV, I will expose your Lie, and your "stupidity", for trying to present it on this forum.
If you would go to your nearest Jewish Synagouge, and ask the Rabbi to read in the Masoretic Hebrew text, (which He has in his possession, right now in 2004, unaltered, as it was at the time it was translated into English in 1604-11,) this passage in 2.Sam.21:19, you will find that the Hebrew text,contais the EXACT same wording as the KJV today!!!!

So where is there any adding of "the brother of", when the masoretic text is the same ? None !!!
The problem is, with the corrupted Septuagint, which OMMITS the words "brother of" , and in 1.Chronicles 20:5, reverses itself, proving it is the "work of Man".
You are positively "unmasked" for presenting exactly the "masonic" deception I alluded to. (Do you have a relative by the name Clinton ? )

You start of your post #135 by saying quote; "I disagree"
Of course YOU Disagree, we all know that by now !!!!!

Also,Your comments in your post #123, about the NIV versus KJV with regards to Luke, is absolute Fabrication and error!
I shall try to deal with that later in the week.

And your comment about Armageddon is also in error as it is referred to by other names such as the valley of "Hinnom" and the valley of "Jehosaphat"

To Your mention of the Seal and Trumpet judgments, I shall also reply later, let me just correct you on the point of the third WOE , it is not the Seven Vials, as you say, but it is spoken of in Rev. 12, where it declares , "Woe unto you, inhabitants of the Earth, because Satan has come down", etc,etc,. Thus, the casting down of Satan, to the Earth is the third Woe. You are so "messed up" in Your theology, that you do not know if you are coming or going

Sorensen

[Sorensen]

Your post 141. What you say, does not make ANY sense at
all to me. But hey, what does a "seasoned/educated/prophecy teaching/missionary" like me, know anyway.

[Teleosis]

This will be my last post about this subject to you. If you don't get it, you don't get it. I do not like how easily you start insulting institutions like Seminaries by calling them "cemeteries." This does not mark you as a reasonable person to have a discussion with at all. I have spoken with more than one person who has this notion that only the King James Version came from God and it is the only "right" Bible. I also know a lot of churches that are legalistic too. These things happen among men; I just don't have a lot of time to waste dealing with people who take such a view of things.

I have a Jewish Bible. Of course, they don't call it such. It is The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text. A New Translation with the aid of previous versions and with constant consultation of Jewish authorities. (As printed inside the cover page) And is printed in Philadelphia by the Jewish Publication Society of America, copywrite 1917, 1945 and 1955.

Guess what? It doesn't have the brother of in 2nd Samuel 21:19 either.

I have my King James Version. In the notes on the Amplified Bible, it lists that "Italics point out: 1. certain familiar passages now recognized as not adequately supported by the original manuscripts. This is the primary use of italics in the New Testament, so that, upon encountering italics, the reader is alerted to a matter of textual readings. Often these will be accompanied by a footnote. and 2. conjunctions such as "and,' "or,' and the like, not in the original text, but used to connect additional English words indicated in the same original word."

Guess what? the brother of is italicized in 2nd Samuel 21:19. It is not found in the original. The King James translators put it there though because they were paying attention as they translated it and noticed the incongruity in the Hebrew text.

You say this (error) shows the NIV and other modern works are "work of Man." I have news for you. Men wrote the Bible. Men then copied the writing. To this day, we cannot be 100% sure of any one man writing any book in the Old Testament at all. And the authorship of certain books in the New Testament is in doubt as well. But even the ones we do know about were the work of men.

I just believe they were divinely inspired for the most part. Now Samuel is a history book. It is not like the Law, the first five books or even the prophets. Those have the highest order of inspiration. And here's another thing for you: the Masoretic text foundation was not the only text lineage the Disciples had when Jesus walked the Earth. We have whole other lines of Old Testament Scripture when we found the Dead Sea Scrolls. And in there they found a book of 1st Samuel that is judged to be better than what we have in the Masoretic text.

Now you can read about this in Jeffery Sheler's Is the Bible True? and you can read about various version of the Bible and how we got to the modern versions and why the King James Version has errors in it too by reading Philip W. Comfort's Essential Guide to Bible Versions.

So I can back up what I declare with support from accredited authors that footnote and supply a proper bibliography with their work. Your test in 2nd Samuel 21:19 just shows that man is fallible and a known error exists in the Masoretic Text -and nothing more.

[Teleosis]

I am going to give a short version of how I view the book of Revelation. First of all, it does not contain so much figurative images as it does explain them. Without this book, a proper story cannot be made of Old Testament prophecy. And without Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse, the timeline in the Seal chronology cannot be tied to the seventieth 'seven' at all.

The book of Revelation is divided into parts, parallel accounts as it were. I am not the first to notice this. However, my analysis may vary from others in how I divide the book. For my purposes, not having a school of eschatology to defend, but just looking at the Bible for what it does say, I came realize a rule was in effect for differentiating parallel accounts: there has to be both a change of focus and a change of scene.

Because Revelation is written with overlapping parallel accounts, it cannot be read as a novel straight through. Doing that repeats several unique and specific events and confuses the sequence of any whole timeline approach. The manner of prophecy is like a limited view of each component in a complex movement. While it will be experienced in whole like listening to an orchestra: to foretell it is like to write a symphony section by section. Revelation is like reading the composition of a symphony by reading each written part -by part.

Discounting John’s narrative as a single account to order the events then sets each of the visions to be analyzed within their own context. Switching to the analogy of film, instead of looking at different major divisions as scene changes in a single movie; each parallel account -literally like another movie- films the future from a different vantage point in order to cover all the action occurring at different levels. Discerning the time each vision spans thus depends upon the evidence within each one. Historical time markers that are specific and unique, repeated specific and unique events and repeated time markers will allow for an assignment of time spans based on what the Bible has written.

The First parallel account has to do with the Churches. While each Church is physically present in the first century A.D., each Church's description includes a future promise in the Kingdom. Because of this aspect, chapers 2 and 3 can be viewed as being over 2000 years long and spanning the Church Age.

The Second parallel account is the Seal Chronology. While it starts with the description of the Heavenly Court, the focus changes as the Lamb opens the Seals (but not the scene). The first four Seals reveal the inception of the four horsemen and in Zechariah 6, you can see how these horsemen grow to be chariots of horses as they come out of Heaven and go forth to do their work in the world. This shows that the forces these horsemen represent grow over time. The Seal chronology starts in 4:1 and goes to the end of chapter 11. I maintain that the third woe is not expressed in this parallel account as John more than obeys the order to seal up what the seven thunders said and not write it down. I think the timeline for the Seals does not follow the seven years because of the pegging of the sixth Seal following the midweek point as per Jesus' Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospel accounts. I allow that the Seal chronology make take a much longer time for it to be accomplished, and debating the nature of the first horseman, could have started as early as the nineteenth century with the industrial revolution.

The Third parallel account lies inserted in side the second almost as a sidebar issue. It goes from 11:1 to 11:13. Here the change of focus goes from the Seals to the Temple. There is also a change of scene to an earthly realm. John does not detail his measurements, but I would ask who is it that Ezekiel sees as the man in bronze who is measuring the Temple in Ezekiel 40:3 if not John. The Temple account is seven years long. The first half for the Gentiles, and the second for the two witnesses as God takes over. (We know the witnesses are in the second half, as they are killed by the beast of the Abyss loosed in the Fifth Seal.)

The Fourth parallel account focuses on Israel with a major scene change. It starts with the birth of our Savior and goes into the first half of the seventieth 'seven.' This encompasses verses 12:1-6 and takes about 2000 years.

The Fifth parallel account focuses on Satan with another scene change. Opening up Revelation 12:7 this event spans the next two verses; it describes a battle that allows us to give an approximate time to this event. Through the time of the flood, Satan was able to directly access God as told in Job. At Christ’s birth from the previous parallel account of the woman in Revelation 12:4, Satan is still in that heavenly realm. During Christ’s ministry Jesus describes a similar event to Revelation in Luke 10:18; both have Satan as the accuser displaced from access to Heaven. This happens sometime during Christ’s first advent when Jesus invades the domain of Satan, the strongman, and has power to bind him (and so cast out demons).

Coming to the close a similar event repeats and protection is afforded again for the woman for three and half years. This event chronicles protection for either half of the seventieth ‘seven,’ or this is a repetition of a specific and unique event from the account of the woman: protection afforded Israel by God from Satan. Finally, there is the first definition problem, as this parallel account ties up with the offspring of Israel. This account of the dragon spans a period of time from Jesus’ ministry with his first advent to some time in the seventieth ‘seven.’ This account ends with the opening of chapter 13:1 where the next character is introduced. The fifth parallel account lies directly over the fourth and likewise takes approximately 2000 years.

The Sixth parallel account from chapter 13 through chapter 16 focuses on the beasts emanating from the dragon. This parallel account spans the seven years of the seventieth 'seven.' This chronicles the offensive nature of the beasts and their destruction. This follows a major theme in the Bible, idolatrous worship as the most detestable practice and the consequence of God’s judgment for it. This account has a two-step fashion then, the first in chapter 13 covering the first half week enumerating the magnitude of the offence and a change of scene in chapter 14 which literally shows the consequences when God acts going to the end of 16 for the second half week. Within God’s active involvement on the earth, there is an elemental sequence. The scene change in chapter 14 shows God’s saving or harvesting of the earth. After that the scene changes to the pouring out of God’s wrath. This idea of saving and then destroying is the same as John the Baptist said of Christ gathering his wheat and burning the chaff. Jesus’ own parable of the weeds sown among the wheat follows the same course, the weeds are bundled, the wheat brought into the barn and then the weeds are burned (suggested as an action to be done since verb burn is expressed as an infinitive in the Greek: to be burned).

The Seventh parallel account details the end of the reign of the beast and reveals further information on a mystery. An angel from the bowls takes John aside and so changes the scene. The focus changes as well from detailing the unfolding of God’s plan to an explanation of the object of His wrath in threefold fashion, the Harlot, the Beast and Babylon. This provides detailed information that reveals some mysteries as is the nature of the book. This account runs through chapters 17 and 18; it literally describes the day and the hour of their destruction at the end of the seventieth ‘seven’ from the sixth parallel account.

Chapter 19 marks a scene change back to the heavenly throne and the focus changes as well to Jesus now as conqueror going out to battle. Here Revelation reverts to a storyline linear fashion backing up into the seventieth ‘seven’ to show how God is victorious and the conclusion of His plan of Salvation for the Christian. In sequential fashion, it moves into the time beyond the seventieth ‘seven’ and as some would say for the first time in prophecy mentions the Millennial Period (although this period is covered by the Prophets both major and minor).

[IGNATIUS]

Most likely each of us will experience normal separation of soul and body just as those before us have.

I am much more concerned about facing my Maker and Judge than hoping for a speculative "rapture". Eastern Orthodoxy has never taught such and considers the idea heretical and dangerous to one's salvation. The "I'll be whisked away/the others are left behind" notion wherein one escapes physical death and Judgement usually is accompanied by other beliefs including once saved always saved, eternal security, and faith alone. None of these are found in historic Latin and Eastern teaching dating from Apostolic times.

[Teleosis]

For the most part, I agree with you. But as to the Eastern Orthodox position on heresy, I would question all the specific references to being snatched up, gathered up, to take over, to carry up, to lift up, to seize, and to change as I listed before on the first page of this thread that are in the Bible.

When I have a plethora of references that refer to a God-driven event associated with the Day of the Lord, I have to conclude there is something more to it than an idle curiosity. I don't think the Rapture as it is commonly known will appear like it is portrayed in the "Left Behind" series. As a matter of fact, I don't think those left behind will recognize it for what it is (I think from a description of them in Rev 6:15-17 that they don't understand much at all, they get most things wrong or they wouldn't be left behind in the first place); it may be so far outside our preconceived notions as to defy belief.

Now whether it is dangerous to one's salvation, that is an entertaining idea. For I do think that there are those that may not be prepared for demonic persecution and oppression that I do read as being in store for Christians during the end times. For that reason, I am writing a commentary because I do not want to see people throw their salvation away and pursue wickedness. After reading Ezekiel 18, I have to wonder if those professing to be Christians but really are hypocrites are indeed in the Father's hand. Likewise, you can profess to be born again, but if you accept the mark of the beast, you will have no place in the book of life. As a warning to myself, I have to endure patiently as well and continue to try to walk in the way of the Lord, to become more like Christ Jesus.

But even though the wise may stumble and fall, (Daniel 11:35) God is still able to redeem them, so even if I don't attain perfection, although it is a goal set by Jesus, I can be justified by Christ so as to wash my robe clean in the blood of the Lamb and be able to stand before God with a great multitude of people.

Likewise, I have struggled with the faith alone position as have Christian scholars before me. That is why James' book was questioned because it seemed to differ from what Paul and John had written. But now I see that works are an outward manifestation of faith. And if there is faith, and that is the criteria since God judges the heart, then there will be some outward sign of that in our works. However, the reverse is not always true. Just because you are "good" does not mean you have put your faith in Jesus to save you.

[Sorensen]

Like wise, I do not have time to rebut your Masonic
"Disinformation" taught by our "Controlled"
theological institutions today. But I shall answer, this your"last" post.
To your first two paragraphs, I say, "Masonic Gobbledygook"
You keep "dodging' my requests. I asked you to go to your Local Synagogue, and you give me this "I have a Hebrew Bible" routine.Your Hebrew / Interlinear/English Bible is
"suspect", as this kind of routine was used to "qualify" the NKJV, as "equal" to the KJV, and "from the same source"
they said, even had "Mason" Jerry Falwell, endorse it as "the same". Guess what, they LIED !!!

Corruption of the original Bible manuscripts, and its influence , can be traced from the days of Origen, 200-250 AD, down through the committees responsible for the English Revised Version of 1881,(Wesctt/Hort) The American Standard Version of 1901, and all modern Bibles which depart from the Greek "Textus Receptus", N.Testament text.

As for your referring to "Masonic affiliated scholars", who try to discredit the only book in the English Language, that comes from the "correct" source , and is proven to be God's "Infallible Word",( as opposed to all other books in the English Language , that claim to be God's Word, it is the only one that does not "contradict itself" as in 2.Sam.21:19, and over 5000 other places, for the NIV )

As for your listing prior "Learned sholars" and their
"sholarly opinions", negating the KJV. I can come up with a List three times Longer than you can, I have "been down that road", and found it to be "full of error".
To point you in the right direction, I would start with
Dean Burgon, asd his "never refuted" argument on the KJV.
Next,you have,Dr. Fredrick Nolan, the Diatessaron by Tatian, J.Hill's article about Origon,(by McClintic & Strong ) Church History, vol2,p.791-Dr. Schaff; Apologia pro vita sua, Chapt.7,p.282-Dr.Newman; History of our English Bible,p.70-Dr. Ira M. Price;Introduction to Textual Criticism of N.T.,p.80-A.T. Robertson; The Canon and Text of the N.T.,p.345-Dr.Gregory; Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol4,p.86; Eccles History,Book 5,chapt.28-Eusebius; (Scribners)Vol.1,pp.434-435-Ante-Nicene Fathers; History of Dogma, Vol.1,p.128-Harnack; Three Religious Leaders of Oxford,pp.481-482-S.Parkes Cadman;
Princeton Review,Jan., 1854,pp.152-153; History of Christianity, Vol2, p.107; History of Christian Doctrine,p.19-G.P.Fisher; Texts and margins of the Revised N.T., p.45-Dr. G.Vance Smith; A History of the Revised Version, pp.36-37-Samuel Hemphill; The Traditional Text,p.163-Burgon & Miller; Introduction to Greek O.T.,p.86-Swete; Catholic and Protestant Bibles,p.4,6-Jacobus; Jerome against Helvidius; Defense of Translations of the Bible(1583),p.62-Faulke; Memoir of Life of Cartwright, p.276-Brook's; The Catholic Encyclopedia, article on Douay Bible; Revised Version, p.51-Cook; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers(Christian Lit. Ed.),Vol.6,p.338; The Influence of the Bible,p.136-Von Dobschutz; Church History, Vol. 2,p.446-Hagenbach; History of the Reformation,Vol2,p.391-Kurtz;
This is just for "starters" , you can find many more if you care to look in "the Right direction", instead of believing the "misinformation" Scholars.

Now as to your comment about the NIV being "essentially the same" as the KJV, I need to "prove you wrong" again,
not so much to instruct you ,(as I think you are to
"indoctrinated" into Heresy, to be able to turn around, as you are obviously caught in the grip of the "Spirit of Error" as spoken of in scripture, however, I shall be praying for your salvation, what is Impossible with Man , is Possible with God ) but for clarification to all those reading your erroneous "assertions" and "Declarative Statements" both Linguistically and Doctrinally. So let us examine some scriptures in Luke, that you claim are
"essentially the same" in the False NIV, as the KJV.
Lk. 1:28, "Blessed art thou among Women" (taken out of NIV)

Lk.2:33 "Joseph" (is changed to Father, in NIV) Doing away with Christs Deity, and the Incarnation.

Lk.2:43 "Joseph and His Mother" (changed to Parents)again
a refutation of Christs Deity.

Lk. 4:4 "But by every Word of God" (taken out in NIV)

Lk. 4:8 "Get thee behind me SATAN" (taken out in NIV )

Lk. 6:48 "Founded Upon a Rock" ( changed to; is well built)

Lk. 9:54 " Even as Elijah did" ( taken out in NIV )

also look up, Lk.9:55-56, 11:2-4, 11:29, 17:36, 21:4, 22:20 and 31, and 64, 23:17,38,42,45, 24:3,6,12,40,49,51

Look at all these changes and omissions !!!
And you have the "nerve" to say that the NIV is
"essentially the same" as the KJV ? The NIV is a DIFFERENT BOOK Entirely !!! A "Different Gospel". No wonder you are "all messed up" reading it. Paul "rested" his whole doctrine on one letter, the letter "S" , the Seed of the woman,(1.Tim.3)in the singular.
Notice, you change one verb, and you change the whole Doctrine. What do you think happen to the Bible when you
make over 5000 changes in the New Testament alone, which
Hort admitted to ? You might as well take that book you read, and "chuck it out the window"

As to your other statements, on the book of Revelation, you have demonstrated that you are so far from the "truth" on this subject, that I am not going to even comment on it. (For those who are interested I do teach on this subject. Have your Pastor invite me to speak at your Church)
I have to ask you ,if have another relative, by the name
of, Sun Myung Moon? You are one confused Puppy !!!

Your last comment about "Prophets, major and minor" absolutely solidifies my opinion about your "Masonic"
Indoctrination. God's Prophets do not come in "majors or Minors" they come in "True or False". Majors and minors belong in the Army, Kindergarten, and Music.
Lastly, let me tell you the purpose of theologians.
They write commentaries, the commentary, is to tell us , that God did not mean what he said. See, as carnal Human
beings, we do not like what is in the Bible, because it tells Us things we don't like an d things we don't want to know, from cover to cover. That's why we have Theologians around......to make it , so we like it Better !!!!!

End of discussion with teleosis

Sorensen

[opus86]

Just a thought here, Sorensen...For someone who claims to be a teacher/missionary type, you are awfully pretentious. Frankly given your condescending attitude, you'll be lucky to get anyone to even read your posts, much less engage in meaningful discussion.

[Cvengr]

Since you believe the Rapture is not imminent, Scripturally, what portion of Prophecy is stated to occur prior to the Rapture, which has not already occurred?

[ladyinred]

Sorry for the delay to your post to me, I somehow missed it. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I am printing out many posts here for further study. Appreciate it!

[ladyinred]

Could you elaborate? For one, do you now consider the NWO benign? I sure don't!

Slow to respond to all of you, I missed all of this for some reason.

I think of the NWO differently now. I once believed the standard one world government that everyone has written so much about. I studied and studied and studied the scriptures and I now think some of these prophecy's have been fulfilled, some not all of course. I also realized that most of the writings about the NWO are based on a clearly anti Jewish perspective, and that bothered me very much.

I also don't believe in a 7 year tribulation anymore, after realizing that Daniel 9:27 is talking about the Messiah, not the anti Christ confirming the covenant. Long story how I came around to that, and I realize that is not the popular opinion, so I won't belabor that one here! Suffice to say we have to remember the rules of reading, subject and object etc. I do believe in a 31/2 year tribulation.

[ladyinred]

Teleosis, If you and ChevyZ28 have created an "about page", so that I can confirm your e-mail addresses, on this forum, you can email me , and after "confirmation" that you are you, I shall be happy to give you the URL to my website

I am who I am, as can be seen on the Fresno Freeper rally threads, therefore may I request you freepmail me the url for your website? I am printing out your posts to study them, but would love to see the entire study if you would allow me to. Thanks.

[Quix]

I certainly believe that 3.5 years will be the worst part of God's wrath on the unGodly.

I do think there are some Scriptures which make 7 years of Great Tribulation somehow inescapable in some list of senses.

But it's not central to my theology.

Blessings,

[Sorensen]

Actually, there are three events that have to occur, one is "Prophesied" and two are understood to be part of the "setting" , so to speak.
The prophesied event, is that spoken of in 2. Thess., about
"there must be a falling away First, and the man of Sin be Revealed". (the man of sin refers to the Antichrist, and on my 'study'website Indicate who the 'Revealer' could be)

This passage means, that the "main Body" of the Church ,will be here , to at least witness this Revealing .

The two related events, are the "destruction" of the Mosque, on the "Dome of the Rock", in Jerusalem,(which I have predicted, will take place during this War with Iraq)
and the consequent "Rebuilding of the "Tribulation" Temple.

Next, the "discovery" of the "Ark of the Covenant", which also is related to the Tribulation time-line. All this indicates that Immanency is not a scriptural position , but one brought about by the "Rapture Guru's" and their false teaching.

further more if we consider the Biblical correct teaching on the resurrection, we will find , that the "next" order , is that of the N.T. "firstfruits", represented by the "24 Elders". It is around this order of Resurrection that the RaptureGuru's have "Packaged" their deceptive teaching.

Furthermore , this order of Resurrection, takes place on one of two very "specific" days, on the "feast of Firstfruits", in a given year , in the near future.

Lastly the Thessalonians were told not to think the day of the Lord was at hand, and that "that" day would not Overtake us "as a thief", as we are not the children of darkness, but the children of Light, and that we are not appointed "to Wrath". (meaning Armageddon) All this indicates Us being here on Earth during this period.

[Sorensen]

Ladyinred, I have sent you a message with my website, I also noticed in your response to QUIX that you say you believed Dan. 9:27, referred to Christ. This is not so , it does actually refers to the Antichrist. I shall give you more evidence later.

Sorensen

[Sorensen]

After some thought about this, I have decided to post my "study" web-site after all. So , here it is. Sorensen.

[Sorensen]

After some thought about this, I have decided to post my "study" web-site after all. So , here it is. Sorensen.

[Sorensen]

I have twice tried to post my "Study" website. I shall try it one more time without the "W 's" in front of it. Any way it is also on my info page under my name, on this site.
Here it is, Doctrinalhonesty.org

Sorensen

[Sorensen]

I have twice tried to post my "Study" website. I shall try it one more time without the "W 's" in front of it. Any way it is also on my info page under my name, on this site.
Here it is, Doctrinalhonesty.org

Sorensen