Lying Scholars: Rumor, gossip and misinformation swirl around the James ossuary inscription

Biblical Archeology Review ^ | Hershel Shanks

[DallasMike]

If the early church believed that Mary had other children, why do the two churches that trace their roots back to Christ and the apostles not hold the same view as the reformers? Why is this an issue for non-Catholics and non-Orthodox?

I trace my church back to Christ and the apostles no less than you do. The point of Protestantism was that the Roman Catholic church (the Orthodox didn't figure into this event historically) had piled on a lot of man-made doctrines onto the message of the Bible. The perpetual virginity of Mary was a Gnostic heresy that entered the church in force around the 3rd century.

[DallasMike]

I also cited St. John Chrysostom, who I believe you cited as well.

Yes, many church fathers were all over the place on various doctrines. Origen, whom you cite, wrote a number of contradictory documents and was way out there on some doctrines.

"[Origen] believed, for instance, in the pre-existence of souls and that eventually everyone, including the Devil, would be saved. In addition, he described the Trinity as a hierarchy, not as an equality of Father, Son, and Spirit. Though Origen attacked Gnosticism, in many ways, like the Gnostics, he rejected the goodness of the material creation."

Origen, like the preponderance of Gnostics, believed that material creation -- and thus, sex -- was bad. Since Jesus was good he had to have come from a good mother and a good mother could never have had sex after Jesus was born. Many in the Catholic church make exactly the same argument today when supporting the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity. Both "doctines" are Gnostic beliefs that crept into the church and are not supported by either the Bible or by early church beliefs.

[conservonator]

Yes, many church fathers were all over the place on various doctrines. Origen, whom you cite, wrote a number of contradictory documents and was way out there on some doctrines.

Which is why they are not considered, among other reasons, to be inspired and therefore not used as single sources for dogma.

[conservonator]

As a bible alone Christian, you can trace your roots back to the bible and no further.

A Gnostic heresy? That's a new one. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do the Orthodox know that they have been deceived by the Gnostics as well?

[conservonator]

Have a nice weekend Mike, we can explore this further on Monday if you want.

[DallasMike]

A Gnostic heresy? That's a new one. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do the Orthodox know that they have been deceived by the Gnostics as well?

Actually it's not a new idea at all. Read about the Gnostics and what they believed in then research when certain doctrines appeared (notably the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity).

I'm not saying that Protestant don't have their own heresies or bad beliefs. My own tradition (Southern Baptist, I'm sometimes ashamed to admit) doesn't believe that Jesus drank real wine. That's total nonsense, as you well know.

[DallasMike]

Have a nice weekend Mike, we can explore this further on Monday if you want.

Thanks, you do the same. We're both Christians and I consider this to be a friendly family discussion, not a war. We're in full agreement on the main things.

[Henchman]

The Jesus they are talking about is Puerto Rican.

[ifffam]

You assume that because Catholics believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we think that sex is bad.

Tthat's just your supposition, but it's not true. Just check the cathechism (www.usccb.org) to be convinced that your supposition is not right.

By the way, "Immaculate Conception" doesn't have anything to do with sex or virginity, but with being born with no original sin

Hope this clarifies

[SunkenCiv]

Joe Zias, a physical anthropologist and archaeologist who formerly worked for the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) but was let go during a budget squeeze in 1997... in August 2003, Zias (unnamed) had given a sworn deposition to the Israeli police swearing to having seen the ossuary in the antiquities shop -- without "brother of Jesus" on it.

update:

Former IAA employee Zoe Zias told several archaeologists and BAR editor Hershal Shanks in 2003 that he had previously seen the James Ossuary in a Jerusalem antiquities shop without the words "brother of Jesus" at the end of the inscription. At the trial, he admitted he had not seen the inscription and could not read it if he had. -- Joe Zias Under Oath | Excerpts from the Forgery Trial of the Century | Biblical Archaeology Society Staff | 06/14/2012