SSPX FRANCE REPORTEDLY IN CHAOS

Envoy Magazine ^ | September 18, 2004 | Pete Vere

[NYer]

Taking a break from judging annulments earlier today, I visited a number of French traditionalist websites.  I also had the opportunity, yesterday, to speak with a friend of mine who is a canonist from France following the situation as well as another friend who keeps tabs on the traditionalist movement in both the English and the French speaking world.  Everyone agrees -- the situation has degenerated into total chaos, as nobody knows exactly what is going on with the highly-respected French SSPX clergy that have criticized what they see as the SSPX's growing rigidity. 

It does appear that Rome has refused to take competency over the case, more-or-less stating that the SSPX denied Rome's jurisdiction over them when Lefebvre carried out a schismatic act through the 1988 episcopal consecrations.  Beyond that, Rome refuses to comment other than to say, "Our door remains open for their return to full communion."

Beyond that, the rhetoric, polemic and accusations suggest that indeed civil war is breaking out among the laity and clergy within the SSPX's French District.  In fact, two websites have now popped up that are exclusively devoted to tracing all the news stories associated with the crisis.  What I find personally find interesting is that every news report, commentary, polemic, etc... mentions Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion from the SSPX around this time last year.

In the months that followed, it appears that the SSPX more-or-less tried to sweep Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion under the rug.  But in so doing, even the regime currently in charge of the SSPX had to admit the important role played by Fr. Aulagnier in the founding of the SSPX.  This is probably why the SSPX appeared to hope the issue would go away.

Yet it is also well-known that Fr. Aulagnier was a close friend of Fr. Laguerie as well as Fr. de Tanouarn -- two of the SSPX's leading priests.  (As Fr. Laguerie's assistant, Fr. Henri appears to have just happened into the situation).  It is also well-known that a number of French (and some American) SSPX priests were not happy with Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion.  Therefore, I will venture to guess that the current SSPX chaos is the effect of Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion coming back to haunt Bishop Fellay.  As for the particular details, this is the first time in almost fourteen years of being a traditionalist that I find the fog of war too thick to reasonably discern what is going on.  (What I find even more troubling is that behind the scenes, under the flag of truce, other SSPX and traditionalist commentators with whom I am in contact have admitted to having the same problem.)

So if I can end on a personal note to the moderate SSPX clergy and their supporters who follow this blog, I'm more than happy to abide by the flag of truce and keep you guys in prayer while you fight whatever battles need to be fought, but I honestly cannot make heads-or-tails of what is happening. But like Rome has said, the door is open for you to return.  I will pray that God gives you the necessary strength to walk through it.

[Fifthmark]

It's a spoof on people who have left the Church because they think they are more Catholic than he is.

So it's a nonsensical comparison meant to insult those who Peter Vere has "excommunicated"? Ah, I see.

[Dominick]

The whole thread is worn out. It is pretty much the same old wrong song, sang off key, and from someone else's sheet music. It is like the song, that was written in English, translated to French, and then back into English.

The SSPX is not Catholic. Easily shown by documents from the only authority that matters, the Holy See. Every Pope from that past would not tolerate Lefebvre, just as the did not tolerate Luther, or others who left the Church. All those people fall into the same group, opposing the rightful authority of the Pope, and shirking the obedience they promise to render him.

The fruit the SSPX has yielded is evident here. Even the Mod who isn't Catholic sees this fruit from the SSPX; insults to others, sedavacanism, petty squabbles, and now from a "bishop" of the SSPX, more of the same.

Nobody here who is a Catholic in good standing can say the Tridentine Mass is invalid. We can see that the SSPX is attempting to hijack it to make their own little fiefdom. When talking about the SSPX, they hide behind the Mass like an attack on them is an attack in the Tridentine rite.

Now we have the statements that every Novus Ordo Mass is a "Clown Mass", a conference of leaders to defuse violence at Assisi is elevated to Council status, and any contact with any other faith or talking about any secular figures results in a taint. Perhaps the Pope should not use a Radio, because Maxwell, who formulated the equations governing electromagnetism was a Scot and hence a Presbyterian.

As was pointed out, this isn't how a Catholic acts, much less a Christian.

[sinkspur]

So it's a nonsensical comparison meant to insult those who Peter Vere has "excommunicated"?

I don't know if it's necessarily nonsensical; I'm going to read Madrid's book to find out.

[Fifthmark]

The SSPX is not Catholic.

Believe as you wish, but you can't point to them denying any doctrine of the Faith.

[Fifthmark]

I'm going to read Madrid's book to find out.

I'll stop short of that. Perhaps you can post a review.

[BlackElk]

Barf

Talk about the schismatic tail trying to wag the dog.

I tell you that I was shocked, shocked (!!!!) to learn that priests soon to be formerly associated with the schism and soon to return to Holy Mother the Church have been charged with disobedience to the non-authority of his fraudulency Fellay! Obviously they were not mistaking Fellay for a pope since they are on their way back to the Faith and since resistance to the papacy and contempt for His Holiness are the irreducible minima of SSPX loyalty to the excommunicated such as Fellay.

You don't suppose that the priests in question have figured out that Jesus Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church upon Peter, gave Peter the keys (it was in all the Bibles), guaranteed to remain WITH that Church all days even unto the end of the world (not with some perpetual grievance cult), that JP II is Christ's Vicar on Earth and that Fellay is not and never will be? These are what one might call TRADITIONAL Roman Catholic beliefs. Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia!

What JP II has bound on earth is bound in heaven.

Well, I gave you your chance to avoid contact with me or from me. Obviously you reject the offer. My vacation is over.

You have elsewhere asked why actual Catholics post here. The answer is obviously that we defend the Faith and the Church from the enemies of both who bray in the wilderness and in schism, and possibly excommunication. Also, as is actually Traditional: Deus Vult!

[BlackElk]

D & N: Now that I am back from my self-imposed vacation during which I lurked more than I posted, I am remembering to thank both of you for the wonderful efforts you are expending here in defense of the Faith.

D: Excellent point as to the Tridentine Mass. It is a Mass of the Roman Catholic Church not to be hijacked by every Martin, Jean and Marcel for respective cult purposes. Well, OK, Martin and Jean had the integrity not to play make-believe Catholic on that score.

Though the SSPX clergy, illicit though they be, are ordained validly and can say valid Tridentine Masses, they don't get to steal it too (along with their excommunicated bishops' consecrations) and make it part of their flimsy structure. Long after SSPX is crushed, there will be Tridentine Masses. That will be in spite of the schism and most certainly not because of it.

[bornacatholic]

amen

[bornacatholic]

And yes, I also pray that Rome be much more faithful to the truth than it has been lately.

* Rome isn't faithful to the truth?

[bornacatholic]

By my perspective the question is whether the Pope is Catholic, not whether traditionalists are.

*UR wrote that on this thread.

. That being the case, why even attempt an exchange with one emracing such a scandalous and insane position?

[BlackElk]

Do you really think you should talk that way about impudent Marcel? Or are you talking about his fraudulency Fellay?

Also, the remains of a young girl were found in an ancient grave (1st century A.D.). She appears to have died of a head injury which fractured her skull. The marble over her burial (whether related to her or not) was broken up and was in bad condition but ONE of several ways of piecing it back together suggested the name Philomena. If you have anything else as to this St. Philomena of provable facts of her life and the sources of those facts, I WOULD be interested. If I understand correctly, a group of local enthusiasts living where she had been buried, decided that she must have been martyred (in defense of her chastity and the Faith) and invented a legend out of whole cloth. She might have fallen off a crumbling wall onto her head quite accidentally. I will be happy to learn that I am wrong on this score because every actual saint is an encouragement and a victory of and for God. As a certain TV talkmeister might say: What am I missing here (about Philomena, saint or otherwise only!)?

I only respond to you because you ping me when I have asked not to be pinged by SSPX and its sympathizers.

[Mershon]

Nice attempt at obfuscation.

[bornacatholic]

I can. those who defend the sspx on these threads repeatedly say Rome has lost the faith, blah, blah, blah.

That denies the Dogma of Vatican 1 which teaches the perpetuity of the Papacy etc

[Mershon]

"Yes, in particular, this ex-Occultist and ex-SSPX with a personal grudge, Pete Vere, now chief bottom licker of Patrick Madrid."

Now THERE is faith, hope and charity. And the greatest of these is CHARITY.

Oh, let me guess... You have your own personal definition of charity.

[BlackElk]

Good. Stay out. Remain anathema. Stop making believe you are Catholic when you reject the pope and the papacy. As you well know, your masquerade as though you were Catholic is merely the platform for you to launch ineffective missiles at His Holiness.

The quality of a man (JP II) or of an institution (the Roman Catholic Church) can be judged by the nature of his and its enemies. I feel sure that JP II and the RCC will always enjoy the good reputation that arises from the hatred launched at both by the nasty little schism of self-important excommunicated and dead Marcel and his remarkable cult of self-deluded trick ponies.

[BlackElk]

Looks like you have slippage on your sedevacantist wing, huh???? Gee, too bad!!!! You better hurry and do something before you look like "moderates." Sedevacantism does not matter, huh???

[Fifthmark]

So that's an official position of the Society? "Lost the faith," "blah, blah, blah," and "Papacy etc" are purposefully vague, as you don't wish to really test your argument. Given the state of discourse on this forum, I don't blame you.

[BlackElk]

Can you read? I said nothing about the powers of future popes. I have noted the incapacity of one pope (St. Pius V)to bind his successors in matters merely prudential.

Popes may well have the power to lift excommunications posthumously. I am predicting that they will not in the case of dead Marcel or dead anyone else in that schism other than, perhaps, Castro de Meyer. Why on earth would a pope lift such a meritorious excommunication?

[Fifthmark]

I attend Society masses. Do you wish to impugn that I "reject the pope and the papacy"? Do you wish to substantiate that argument? Do you still not realize what the sin of rash judgment is and how it can be mortal given a grave matter such as whether or not one is excommunicated from the Catholic Church?

[BlackElk]

Where is Lavrenti Beria when you really need him?