METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE

Spirit Daily ^ | December 12, 2004 | Mike Brown

[NYer]

The Chicago Tribune reports that when some members of Amor de Dios United Methodist Church in an area called Little Village elected to move a statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe into the sanctuary last year, "the icon spawned an exodus."

Turned off by the introduction of a Roman Catholic tradition to a Protestant congregation, most of the church's 15 founding parishioners drifted away. To them, venerating the Virgin Mary and reciting the rosary did not belong in a Methodist church.

But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry. Pastors of other Hispanic Methodist congregations objected too. Meanwhile, and curiously,

Roman Catholics in the neighborhood fret that the church might be selling itself as something it was not.

"Rev. Jose Landaverde allowed the statue to stay," reports the newspaper. "He says he sees no harm in embracing a tradition--the Virgin is an unofficial national symbol of Mexico--that might bring people closer to God. 'It's coming from the people, which is the real presence of the Holy Spirit,' said Landaverde, 31, a student pastor from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary. 'You cannot bring theological debates to the people when they need spiritual assistance.'"

The Tribune reports that this month, parishioners celebrated their first novena in honor of the Virgin of Guadalupe by parading the two-foot-high statue around the neighborhood, singing songs and reciting the rosary. "About two dozen parishioners weathered the chill each night to deliver the statue to a different living room, where it was surrounded by garland, twinkling lights, roses and poinsettias. On Sunday, parishioners will commence the traditional Feast Day for the Virgin of Guadalupe and, through prayers, mariachi music, drama and dancing, pay homage. 'The Virgin understands our suffering and she accompanies us everywhere we go,' said church member Oscar Hernandez, who grew up Roman Catholic in El Salvador but now considers himself a Methodist. 'We don't want to take away the faith that this community has, but we want to nourish it.'"

The parish council discerned that something was missing--the Virgin of Guadalupe.

"Since I was little, it's always been right to have the Virgin Mary in the church," said Olivia Serrato, 40, one of the original parishioners who decided to stay after the Virgin was introduced. "It's now a great honor to bring the Virgin Mary to my Methodist church. Before I didn't feel complete."
 

[TexasGreg]

Wesley was no friend of Reform Doctrine, ask Whitfield , sorry

Well ... if your understanding of the Protestant Reformation is so narrow that it cannot see Arminianism (i.e., 2-point Calvinism) as part of the Reformation stream, then of course that would be your view.

I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but Wesleyan-Arminianism is most definitely part of the Protestant stream of theological thought. Is it lock-step in line with 5-point Supralapsarian Calvinism or mainland-European Lutheranism? No. It's not. But, then, those are NOT the only form of the Protestant Reformation.

This being said, I much prefer to think of myself, and Methodism, as a form of Protestant Catholicism.

[RnMomof7]

I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but Wesleyan-Arminianism is most definitely part of the Protestant stream of theological thought. Is it lock-step in line with 5-point Supralapsarian Calvinism or mainland-European Lutheranism? No. It's not. But, then, those are NOT the only form of the Protestant Reformation.

Yes they were and are. The doctrines of the Reformation are not Arminian or Wesleyan. Those doctrines followed later in an attempt to undermine Calvinism and return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings. They protest the protesters not Catholic doctrine.

This being said, I much prefer to think of myself, and Methodism, as a form of Protestant Catholicism.

You make my point over and over pastor. You are right , that is a good description for your denomination, and why the idea of having icons ( idols) in your church , does not shock your sensibilities.

Arminianism was a protest over the reformation , not Catholicism . Arminians and Wesleyans are not protestants they are simply not Catholic ... and from your words perhaps not too happy about the distance that remains

[TexasGreg]

Yes they were and are. The doctrines of the Reformation are not Arminian or Wesleyan. Those doctrines followed later in an attempt to undermine Calvinism and return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings.

Jacob Arminus and John Wesley were attempting to "return to some of the basic Jesuit teachings?" FOFLMHO ... wow ... what a self-revealing statement on your part. Where were you educated? Under whom did you study? What are your theological credentials? You betray the narrow limits of your training if you think that an attempt to pull hyper-Calvinism back from the brink of extremist heresy was, somehow, an attempt to "return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings."

...and why the idea of having icons ( idols) in your church , does not shock your sensibilities.

I no where stated that there are icons in my church. I said I have icons for decoration -- religious decoration. I did NOT say where.

Now that I think about it, there are some iconic elements in my church's stain-glassed windows. But, that's also true of First Baptist down the street. GASP!

Arminianism was a protest over the reformation , not Catholicism .

Arminianism was a protest over the EXTREMES of the Calvinist Reformation. Given that some those very same Calvinists dug up his dead body, tried him, and burned his dead bones illustrates the error of their extremes.

Arminians and Wesleyans are not protestants...

Wrong. John Wesley's Methodist revival was protesting the spiritual death of the Church of England in his day -- the refusal of priests to preach a conversion message, the lack of the means of grace in Anglican Worship, and the unwillingness of the church to reach out to where the people were with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was a protest WITHIN the reformation of the dead-ness of certain elements of the Anglican branch of the Reformation. And, in this respect, it was part of the reason why such Calvinist Anglicans as George Whitefield joined him in his efforts.

...they are simply not Catholic ...

Also wrong. In an ironic sense, Wesley affirmed being of a "true Catholic Spirit" but not "Popish." BIG difference ... particularly in his day.

... and from your words perhaps not too happy about the distance that remains

I do pray for the unity of the Body of Christ, and that includes with my sisters and brothers in the Roman Catholic Church. In your zeal to brand Wesleyan-Arminianism as not being part of the Protestant Reformation you overlook those elements within Roman Catholicism which Anglicanism and Methodist Anglicanism actually protested in their day.

[RnMomof7]

As you can tell I have no desire for unity in the church , there is way too much error . I want no part of a works based salvation , not even if they are "nice" people .

Jacob Arminus and John Wesley were attempting to "return to some of the basic Jesuit teachings?" FOFLMHO ... wow ... what a self-revealing statement on your part. Where were you educated? Under whom did you study? What are your theological credentials? You betray the narrow limits of your training if you think that an attempt to pull hyper-Calvinism back from the brink of extremist heresy was, somehow, an attempt to "return to some of the basic Jesuits teachings."

Can we site a former benefactor of Wesley in the discussion?

Is not this too the very language of modern Arminianism? Do not the partizans of that scheme argue on the same identical terms? Should it be said, "True, this proves that Arminianism is Pelagianism revived; but it does not prove, that the doctrines of Arminianism are originally Popish:" a moment's cool attention will make it plain that they are. Let us again hear Mr. Bower, who, after the passage just quoted, immediately adds, "on these two last propositions, the Jesuits found their whole system of grace and free-will; agreeing therein with the Semipelagians, against the Jansenists and St. Augustine."6 The Jesuits were moulded into a regular body, towards the middle of the sixteenth century: toward the close of the same century, Arminius began to infest the Protestant churches. It needs therefore no great penetration, to discern from what source he drew his poison. His journey to Rome (though Monsicur Bayle affects to make light of the inferences which were at that very time deduced from it) was not for nothing. If, however, any are disposed to believe, that Arminius imbibed his doctrines from the Socinians in Poland, with whom, it is certain, he was on terms of intimate friendship, I have no objection to splitting the difference: he might import some of his tenets from the Racovian brethren, and yet be indebted, for others, to the disciples of Loyola.
Toplady

Arminianism was a protest over the EXTREMES of the Calvinist Reformation. Given that some those very same Calvinists dug up his dead body, tried him, and burned his dead bones illustrates the error of their extreme

He was a liar that had to use deception to teach his doctrine( much as Wesley slandered his "friend" Whitfield) .... look to the roots.

The fact is that Wesleyans/Arminians do not hold 2 points of the tulip as you posted yesterday .

We hold only the most basic of Christian salvation doctrine in common . The tulip emerged as a response to the Arminians who chose these five points to oppose. ( Remonstrants)
So to say that we share 2 is disingenuous at the very least .

Protestants protested the Roman church , not other reformation churches.

In your zeal to brand Wesleyan-Arminianism as not being part of the Protestant Reformation you overlook those elements within Roman Catholicism which Anglicanism and Methodist Anglicanism actually protested in their day.

Foolishness. The Wesleyan/Arminians were already OUT of the Roman church when they "protested". They protested the protesters...and you know that is true. They came closer to Roman doctrine not further away .

True protestants are the sons of the reformation in doctrine, the rest are simply non Catholic ( and wanted to move closer it seems)

BTW this is not a "personal discussion...I never argue seriously with another mac user :>)

[TexasGreg]

Have a Merry Christmas
Clearly, I shouldn't bother you with facts or argument; your mind is made up, and no amount of discussion or presentation of POVs will convince you that your conception is in error.

So ... Have a Merry Christmas. I have a glorious Savior to be thankful for and serve, and too much to do to get further drawn into a fight ... theological or otherwise ... today.

[RnMomof7]

Clearly, I shouldn't bother you with facts or argument; your mind is made up, and no amount of discussion or presentation of POVs will convince you that your conception is in error.

I tend to look at a response like this and see it as retreat :>)

I was a Wesleyan before I was a Calvinist. I am not a stranger to the doctrinal differences or church history, so the discussion is always interesting to me .

You have a blessed Christmas also Peace! .

[TexasGreg]

I tend to look at a response like this and see it as retreat :>)

Hardly. In this case, it's Christmas Eve. I still had two services to do when I posted earlier -- now it's one down and one still to go. To put this bluntly, I don't desire being distracted from the much more important duty of preaching the Gospel by the never-ending debate between Calvinists and Arminians. But ... if you want to interpret my statement as being a retreat, you're more than welcome to do so. The simple truth is, I have more important things to do than to attempt to convince you -- or anyone else, for that matter -- that Arminianism is NOT Pelagianism.

I'd better close this before I swerve into a foul mood ... being painted as a dirty stinking heretic (i.e., a Pelagian) tends to do that to me. I'm NOT a Pelagian, I'm a 2 point Calvinist (in other words, an Arminian). If you disagree then you don't know as much about Wesleyan Arminianism as you think you do.

[Baraonda]

Merry Christmas.

[NYer]

Christmas Blessings to you and your family!

[Salvation]

American Catholic’s Saint of the Day

December 12, 2006

Our Lady of Guadalupe

The feast in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe goes back to the sixteenth century. Chronicles of that period tell us the story.

A poor Indian named Cuauhtlatohuac was baptized and given the name Juan Diego. He was a 57-year-old widower and lived in a small village near Mexico City. On Saturday morning, December 9, 1531, he was on his way to a nearby barrio to attend Mass in honor of Our Lady.

He was walking by a hill called Tepeyac when he heard beautiful music like the warbling of birds. A radiant cloud appeared and within it a young Native American maiden dressed like an Aztec princess. The lady spoke to him in his own language and sent him to the bishop of Mexico, a Franciscan named Juan de Zumarraga. The bishop was to build a chapel in the place where the lady appeared.

Eventually the bishop told Juan Diego to have the lady give him a sign. About this same time Juan Diego’s uncle became seriously ill. This led poor Diego to try to avoid the lady. The lady found Diego, nevertheless, assured him that his uncle would recover and provided roses for Juan to carry to the bishop in his cape or tilma.

When Juan Diego opened his tilma in the bishop’s presence, the roses fell to the ground and the bishop sank to his knees. On Juan Diego’s tilma appeared an image of Mary as she had appeared at the hill of Tepeyac. It was December 12, 1531.

Comment:

Mary's appearance to Juan Diego as one of his people is a powerful reminder that Mary and the God who sent her accept all peoples. In the context of the sometimes rude and cruel treatment of the Indians by the Spaniards, the apparition was a rebuke to the Spaniards and an event of vast significance for Native Americans. While a number of them had converted before this incident, they now came in droves. According to a contemporary chronicler, nine million Indians became Catholic in a very short time. In these days when we hear so much about God's preferential option for the poor, Our Lady of Guadalupe cries out to us that God's love for and identification with the poor is an age-old truth that stems from the Gospel itself.

Quote:

Mary to Juan Diego: “My dearest son, I am the eternal Virgin Mary, Mother of the true God, Author of Life, Creator of all and Lord of the Heavens and of the Earth...and it is my desire that a church be built here in this place for me, where, as your most merciful Mother and that of all your people, I may show my loving clemency and the compassion that I bear to the Indians, and to those who love and seek me...” (from an ancient chronicle).