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The Catholic Church and the Holocaust
The New American ^ | 06.19.2000 | Michael E. Telzrow

Posted on 01/18/2005 8:29:05 PM PST by Coleus

The Catholic Church and the Holocaust
by Michael E. Telzrow

The unjust vilification of Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church for supposed collaboration with the Nazis during World War II is only part of a broader campaign to condemn all Christians.

In an editorial published on March 18, 1998, the New York Times took up the subject of Pope Pius XII and the activities of the Catholic Church regarding the Nazis during World War II. "A full exploration of Pope Pius’s conduct is needed...," stated the Times’ editorial writer. "It now falls to John Paul and his successors to take the next step toward full acceptance of the Vatican’s failure to stand squarely against the evil that swept across Europe."

How times change. In the waning days of December 1941, the view from New York City was remarkably different. Those were dark days. The backbone of the U.S. Pacific Fleet lay in ruins in Pearl Harbor; France (France!) had fallen to the Nazis; and England, poor England, was surrounded by Admiral Donitz’ deadly u-boats in the Atlantic and a hostile, German-occupied continent across the Channel. Europe, from the Pyrenees to Poland (and beyond), from the North Sea to the Mediterranean, lay in Hitler’s fatal grasp, sealing the fate of millions of innocent people.

Amidst the grotesque tide of evil sweeping Europe was one man and his church: Pope Pius XII. Indeed, the same Pius XII now demonized by the Times for his supposed failure to stand up to the Nazis was, during those dark days, lauded by that very same paper for his courage in opposing them. On Christmas Day, 1941, during perhaps the lowest point of the war, the Times opined: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas.... He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all."

Other influential voices concurred with the 1941 Times, not just during the war but afterward. Perhaps the most compelling vindication of Pope Pius XII’s record vis-à-vis the Nazis and the Holocaust can be found by simply reading the remarks of the many Jewish government officials and Holocaust survivors who have offered their opinions of his pontificate.

Dr. Raphael Cantoni, director of the Italian Jewish Assistance Committee, wrote: "The Church and the papacy have saved Jews as much and in as far as they could save Christians.... Six million of my co-religionists have been murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims, had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII."

Albert Einstein, too, praised the Catholic Church: "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty," he wrote. And when Pope Pius XII died in 1958, Golda Meir, who later became Prime Minister of Israel, remarked:

We share in the grief of humanity at the passing away of his Holiness Pope Pius XII. In a generation afflicted by wars and discords, he upheld the highest ideals of peace and compassion. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.

Inventing History

The myth that the Catholic Church under Pope Pius XII failed to do anything to stop the Nazis under Hitler from carrying out the murder of millions of Jews, and that the Church’s supposed failure in this regard was due to an affinity of Pius XII or of the Catholic Church for the Nazis, got its start in 1963 with the opening of Rolf Hochhuth’s play Der Stellvertreter (The Deputy). The play asserted that a craven Pius XII was partly responsible for the extermination of millions of Jews because he failed to publicly challenge Hitler.

Hochhuth’s play opened five years after the death of Pius XII, so he was unable to mount a defense against such charges. But subsequent popes have done so, as have several wartime diplomats who had been accredited to the Holy See. Ambassadors Grippenberg of Finland, Haggelof of Sweden, Kanayama of Japan, and Sir Francis d’Arcy Osborne of Britain all publicly rejected Hochhuth’s premise.

The truth notwithstanding, in recent years the vilification campaign against Pope Pius XII has picked up steam, especially with last year’s publication of John Cornwell’s book, Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, in which the author draws a caricature of Pius XII as a de facto Nazi collaborator. In March of this year, Pope John Paul II’s apology for Catholic sins was occasion for much of the latest criticism. "The Church still wants to steer clear of dealing with the role of the Vatican during World War II," said Rabbi Marvin Heir of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. His comments were echoed by Abraham H. Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League. The papal apology, he said, "stopped short in addressing specific Catholic wrongs against the Jewish people, especially the Holocaust."

The evidence, however, simply does not support the supposition that the Catholic Church shares the blame for the Holocaust. Only Adolf Hitler could have prevented the Holocaust. But, while incapable of preventing Nazi atrocities, the Catholic Church under Pius XII did more than any other organization to help the Jewish people. Rabbi Pinchas Lapide, a former Israeli diplomat, credited Pius XII and the Catholic Church with saving 860,000 Jews. "It’s a big number, to be sure," says columnist Sidney Zion in the March 16th Houston Chronicle, "but even if we halve it and then subtract by two, we have more Jews saved by the Vatican than by the Allies."

Pre-War Opposition

During the years preceding the war, Vatican diplomatic activities dealt primarily with securing rights for the Catholic Church in Germany and in other countries where the Church was historically severely restricted in her activities. Even before Hitler was appointed chancellor (1933), Pope Pius XI condemned hatred of Jews. "Moved by Christian charity," began Pius XI, "the Holy See is obligated to protect the Jewish people against unjust vexations and … it particularly condemns unreservedly … the hatred that goes by the name of anti-Semitism."

Eugenio Pacelli, the man who would become Pope Pius XII, served as the Vatican’s "nuncio" (emissary) in Germany from 1917 until 1929, during which time he became well acquainted with the German people and acutely aware of the true nature of Nazism. As early as 1925, notes columnist Donald Devine in his April 30th editorial in the Washington Times, Pacelli "told fellow diplomats that Hitler was ‘obsessed’ and a ‘new manifestation’ of the Anti-Christ." By 1929 Pacelli had criticized the Nazis 40 times.

In 1930 Pacelli became the Vatican’s secretary of state under Pope Pius XI. In that capacity he did — as his revisionist enemies point out — sign an agreement with the Hitler regime. However, Devine writes, he "told the British he had to do so or it would mean the ‘virtual elimination of the Catholic Church’ in Germany." By 1934, Pacelli was on record as having protested the closing in Germany of Catholic publications, the Nazi takeover of religious schools, and the forcing of Catholic children to join the Hitler Youth. "He also," says Devine, "lodged 60 protests of Jewish cases."

In 1937, while still serving as Vatican secretary of state, Eugenio Pacelli prepared, for Pope Pius XI, the final draft of the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern), in which Nazism was condemned as incompatible with Christianity. The document was smuggled into Germany and read from the pulpit of every Catholic church on March 21, 1937. Mit brennender Sorge unmasked the hypocrisy of the Nazi regime by speaking of the "deformation of the state" through which the rights of man are violated. It unequivocally stated:

Whoever exalts the race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community … above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, and deifies, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God... is a false prophet in whom the words of Scripture find terrible application: "He that dwelleth in Heaven shall laugh at them."

After the encyclical was read, the Nazi regime increased its restrictive policies in direct violation of the terms of the 1933 Concordat insuring Catholic civil rights. In Munich alone, suppression of Catholic schools resulted in a drop in enrollment from 65 percent in 1933 to 3 percent in 1937. Anti-Catholic propaganda was distributed; Catholic presses were seized; priests were forbidden to speak in public; and religious ceremonies were restricted. Nazi propagandists, looking for Hitler Youth recruits, targeted Catholic youth organizations. The de-Christianization of schools provided fertile ground for Hitler Youth activities. Pacelli objected to these abuses, eventually sending 89 official documents of protest.

In 1939, after he was elected pope, Pius XII continued to speak out against abuses by the state. His initial encyclical letter, Summi Pontificatus (Darkness Over the Earth), dated October 20, 1939, is a repudiation of the totalitarian "isms" — Nazism, Fascism, and Communism. The first paragraph of a section entitled State-Worship and International Confidence laid the foundation for opposition against abusive government activity:

This notion, Worshipful Brethren, which assigns unlimited powers to the state, is not only an error that brings fatal consequences to the internal life of a society and to their chances of healthy progress; it is equally disastrous to the relations of peoples with one another. It breaks the bonds which ought to unite commonwealths, it robs international law of all its vigor, it makes them almost incapable of living together on terms of peace and goodwill.

The Allies air-dropped 88,000 copies of this encyclical over Germany, where its publication had been banned by the Nazi regime.

On Christmas Day, 1942, Pius XII became the first international figure to publicly condemn what later became known as the Holocaust, thereby earning the enmity of the Nazi regime. In a broadcast entitled The Rights of Man, Pius XII asked: "Are the nations to stand by inactive while this disastrous process goes on?" "Surely," he continued, "all men of courage and honor ought to unite in a solemn vow … to devote themselves to the service of the human person and of a divinely ennobled human society.... Humanity owes this vow to those hundreds of thousands who, without any fault of their own, sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or gradual extinction." According to the June 1997 issue of Inside the Vatican, the Gestapo was angered by this message. A Gestapo report accused Pius XII of "speaking on behalf of the Jews" and declared that the speech was "one long attack on everything we stand for." The Nazis had identified Pius XII as their enemy. Moreover, in the official Nazi publication Das Reich, the pope was called a "full Jew." This was in keeping with Hitler’s view of Christianity as an enemy of Nazism. As early as 1933, Hitler had announced: "There is no future with the churches.... One is either a Christian or a German. One cannot be both."

Touchy Situation

The Nazis were not only anti-Pope Pius XII but anti-Catholic, and there is no doubt that Hitler would have tried to eliminate the Catholic Church had he been victorious. As it was, Catholics under Nazi rule were persecuted throughout the war, with the papal or papal-inspired protests oftentimes serving as a convenient pretext for that persecution. In 1941, for example, the Gestapo expelled the Jesuits from Münster, Germany, along with women religious of the Immaculata community.

Polish Catholics endured an even greater trial at the hands of their Nazi occupiers. Schools and seminaries were closed; presses were destroyed; and church property was confiscated. Religious instruction was limited to children between the ages of 10 and 18, for one hour per week, and only in churches.

The human toll was staggering. Countless Polish Catholics perished at the hands of the Nazis. Church historian Pierre Blet, a French Jesuit who spent 17 years in the Vatican archives while working on the 12-volume Acts and Documents of the Holy See During the Second World War, estimates that 4 bishops, 1,996 priests, 113 clerics, and 238 female religious were murdered, and that 3,642 priests, 389 clerics, 341 lay brothers, and 1,117 female religious were interned in concentration camps.

It is, of course, true that during the war the Vatican maintained an outward appearance of neutrality. But this was done in order to safeguard Catholic populations living under the Reich, not just in Germany but in the occupied territories. It should be kept in mind, too, that the pope was a virtual prisoner in the Vatican, surrounded as it was by a hostile fascist state. Yet the record shows that Pope Pius XII did what he could under the circumstances. He continued providing moral opposition, but he proceeded cautiously and thoughtfully in the hope that his efforts would not invite reprisals and that (in general) they would do more good than harm.

But even when he dared not speak out himself, he allowed, and even cautiously encouraged, his bishops to do so. Consequently, his German bishops protested Nazi actions on several occasions. Münster’s Bishop Von Galen publicly denounced the Nazi euthanasia policy in 1941, after 800 mentally ill individuals had been targeted for extermination. Likewise, Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich delivered several sermons critical of Nazi policies.

In February 1942, Catholic bishops of Nazi-occupied Holland prepared a letter protesting the deportation of Jews to the death camps. Protestant pastors also supported the document and indicated a willingness to deliver it from the pulpit. At the last minute they declined, no doubt cognizant of its potential for causing more harm than good. Indeed, their fears were realized. After Catholic bishops read the protest from the pulpit, Nazi occupation forces arrested and deported to the death camps all Dutch Jews who had converted to Catholicism. Included among them was the noted philosopher and Carmelite nun Edith Stein, who was killed at Dachau.

According to Jewish historian Pinchas E. Lapide, a higher percentage of Jews were deported from Holland than from any other Nazi-occupied territory (approximately 110,000 or 79 percent of the total Jewish population). These deportations happened in spite of the vigorous protestations from the Catholic clergy. Observers of the Nazi roundup in Holland reasonably concluded that the Church’s frequent protestations were of no help and in fact probably made things worse.

Internment camp detainees, especially Catholic priests and Protestant ministers, paid dearly whenever Catholic authorities issued protests. Luxembourg primate Bishop Jean Bernard noted the reaction of his fellow inmates at Dachau with respect to papal protests:

The detained priests trembled every time news reached us of some protest by a religious authority, but particularly by the Vatican. We all had the impression that our wardens made us atone heavily for the fury these protests evoked.... Whenever the way we were treated became more brutal, the Protestant pastors among the prisoners used to vent their indignation on the Catholic priests: "Again your big naïve Pope and those simpletons, your bishops, are shooting their big mouths off.... Why don’t they get the idea once and for all, and shut up. They play the heroes and we have to pay the bill.

The lesson was not lost on Jewish, Christian, and secular organizations. They believed that papal protests merely exacerbated the situation, and they often implored Pope Pius to refrain from making public protests. Opposing the Nazis in ways that would not worsen the situation offered the pope a significant challenge.

Providing a Hiding Place

One successful approach encouraged by Pius XII was the use of Catholic religious houses as hiding places. This practice was used particularly effectively in Italy. In October 1943, at the beginning of the Nazi occupation, Pope Pius XII authorized his secretary of state to allow the practice and almost immediately Jews throughout Italy began to seek shelter in convents, monasteries, and seminaries. Over 150 convents in Rome served as sanctuaries for fugitive Jews. Margherita Marchione, author of Yours is a Precious Witness: Memoirs of Jews and Catholics in Wartime Italy, estimates that the vast majority of Church-owned buildings in the city of Rome were used at one time or another to house Jewish refugees. Pius XII even gave special dispensation to cloistered communities, releasing them from their obligations, so that all areas would be open to those seeking asylum.

In October 1943, at the height of the Nazi persecution of Roman Jews, Carlo Sestieri sought shelter in the Convent of the Gesù along with his brother, a cousin, and 50 other Jews. During a January 1995 interview, Sestieri described his eight-month stay as "rather pleasant." He and his fellow refugees were fed regularly and even enjoyed access to hot showers. Later, he and 15 others found refuge in an apartment belonging to a sacristan in the Palazzo della Cancelleria. It was there that Monsignor Giulio Circione, pastor of San Lorenzo, provided "every possible comfort," including the use of his personal library. Carlo Sestieri’s experience was not unique. Thousands of Jews received similar levels of hospitality in hundreds of Italian convents, hospitals, and monasteries.

Such assistance was not limited to the Jews in Italy. Throughout Europe, Jews were aided by Catholic clergy and lay persons inspired by Pope Pius XII’s example. Hundreds of stories of moral courage in the face of Nazi persecution were repeated over and over.

In 1942, German Jews Paul and Johanna Korn fled Breslau with their daughter Ursula to Alassio on the Italian Riviera. They were eventually directed to Father Beniamino Schivo. Father Schivo found them shelter in a seminary and provided them with food and clothing. In September 1943, Father Schivo brought the family to a summer villa belonging to Salesian nuns. Later that year, after Paul Korn joined a partisan unit, Johanna and Ursula moved to a Salesian convent. There the nuns disguised Ursula and Johanna in nuns’ habits. Prior to a search of the convent by Germans, Father Schivo brought them back to his seminary where they hid until the area was liberated on July 14, 1944. The Korns were only one of many Jewish families who were saved by the efforts of Father Beniamino Schivo. "Father Schivo became our protector," said Ursula Korn Selig, "our one and only best friend. In every way, endangering his own life, he saved our lives, and he did so time and time again."

In France, individual Catholic priests and lay persons often worked to save their Jewish neighbors. The Abbé René de Naurois was a vocal outspoken critic of Hitler. In 1941, he joined the resistance movement and worked to smuggle Jews into neutral Spain. He helped forge identity papers and provided shelter for Jews in Catholic institutions. Although wanted by the Gestapo, the Abbé continued his work until he was compelled to flee France. He joined the Free French and returned to France during the Allied invasion.

In the Diocese of Montauban, a letter was prepared by the Chancery condemning the deportation of Jews. Bishop Pierre-Marie Théas asked Marie-Rose Gineste to see that all the parishes received the letter. Fearing that the Vichy (Nazi puppet) government might intercept it in the mails, she proposed to deliver copies of the letter personally by bicycle. Gineste managed to avoid interrogation by the Gestapo and delivered the document to all the priests within 100 kilometers of Montauban within four days. On August 30, 1942, the letter was read in all the diocesan churches exhorting Catholics to "go forth and protect Jews from deportation." Public protest by Bishop Théas and his colleagues in Toulouse and Lyon led to a widespread rescue campaign.

Catholic clerics and lay persons that assisted Jewish refugees were motivated by the simple desire to act in a manner consistent with their Christian beliefs. Their ideas of human justice, in complete accord with those of Pope Pius XII, compelled them to do so. Pius XII did not formally direct all of the Catholic faithful to put themselves at risk by giving aid, but he clearly approved of their actions as consistent with his wishes.

When asked why the Sisters of the Religious Teachers of Filippini aided the Jews, Sister Maria Pucci replied, "We respected and loved them. We responded to the pope’s plea to open our doors."

Pope Pius XII’s actions were not limited solely to providing his approval of such actions. In addition to providing food and medicine, he personally sheltered hundreds of Jews in the Vatican as well as in his estate at Castelgandolfo.

Lesson for All

In his persistent efforts to oppose the Nazi regime and to help the Jews, without providing the Nazis with the excuse to outlaw Catholicism, and without doing more harm than good, Pope Pius XII accomplished much good. That good didn’t escape the attention of grateful Jews during the war. In August 1943, the World Jewish Congress announced: "Our terror-stricken brethren look to Your Holiness as the only hope for saving them from persecution and death."

"Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past," says novelist George Orwell in 1984. The deliberate rewriting of the history of the Catholic Church in World War II, and the malicious character assassination directed at Pope Pius XII, should give people of all creeds pause. Those who seek to create an atheistic future — in which all nations recognize a single, Godless, global authority — must, necessarily, remove from man’s collective memory the recollection of the good done by believers. Today it is a crusade against the Catholic Church and the legacy of Pope Pius XII. Tomorrow, unless the lies about the Catholic Church’s record during WWII are unmasked and the truth is told, it will be other religious bodies that will suffer along the rocky road to the new world order.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicchurch; catholiclist; germany; hitler; holocaust; jbs; johnbirchsociety; nazi; nazis; piusxii; piusxiii; pope; popepiusxii; ratlines; theholocaust; thenewamerican; tna; vatican; wwii
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Seeing the Pontiff as an impediment to his plans to build a secular pagan order, National Socialist dictator Adolf Hitler ordered one of generals to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II. (Pius XII has been maligned, even in some "conservative" circles, as a Nazi collaborator

Hitler plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII detailed

Hitler wanted Pope Pius kidnapped

HITLER’S PLOT TO KIDNAP POPE LEAVES SOME MUTE

NEW BID TO SMEAR POPE PIUS XII FAILS             

Sister Margherita Marchione Commentaries on Pope Pius XII

CCJU Interreligious Articles--The Shoah by Sr. Margherita

Pius XII, the Catholic Church & the Holocaust - Online Reference

Pope Pius XII and the Jews

CORNWELL'S POPE:
"A NASTY CARICATURE OF A NOBLE AND SAINTLY MAN"

Point by Point Rebuttal by Church Historian. Dr.Peter Gumpel

CORNWELL’S POPE: A NASTY CARICATURE OF A NOBLE AND SAINTLY MAN


1 posted on 01/18/2005 8:29:05 PM PST by Coleus
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


2 posted on 01/18/2005 8:30:02 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Coleus; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; goldenstategirl; ...

Ping.


3 posted on 01/18/2005 8:34:11 PM PST by narses (Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family + Vivo Christo Rey!)
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To: Coleus

Pius XII stood up to the murdering thugs in WWII, just as today John Paul II stands up to the murdering thugs in abortuaries across the planet.


4 posted on 01/18/2005 8:38:10 PM PST by Aussie Dasher (Stop Hillary - PEGGY NOONAN '08)
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To: Coleus

Good article, thanks for posting it.


5 posted on 01/18/2005 8:48:48 PM PST by swilhelm73 (Like the archers of Agincourt, ... the Swiftboat Veterans took down their own haughty Frenchman.)
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To: Coleus

6 posted on 01/18/2005 8:49:57 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Coleus

Aw, c'mon. You wouldn't have to defend the Pope, and the Catholic Church, if the rumors liberals spread about them were false. /sarcasm


7 posted on 01/18/2005 8:50:23 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Coleus

bump


8 posted on 01/18/2005 8:52:48 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Coleus

I skimmed the links you provided (thank you). I don't see an exact copy of the Times article. Maybe it is in one of those books?

Does anyone have this? Even if it is in hardcopy, I will throw it up on my server (and not delete it this time...sorry...)


9 posted on 01/18/2005 8:54:46 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Calpernia
Here's the Article and the Catholic League's rebuke

Saving Jewish Children, but at What Cost?

NEW BID TO SMEAR POPE PIUS XII FAILS       

10 posted on 01/18/2005 9:22:03 PM PST by Coleus (Abortion and Euthanasia, Don't Democrats just kill ya! Kill babies, Save the Bears!!)
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To: Coleus

bookmarked. Thank you!


11 posted on 01/18/2005 9:41:53 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Coleus
Great article, thanks. The anti-Catholics who tried to perpetrate this dreadful lie against Pope Pius XII have been utterly debunked by so many scholars and historical records that you'd think they'd be embarrassed to try and continue their blatant lies. I guess evil has no conscience, but is there anything more destructive or more evil than a bald faced liar who lies to harm the reputation of the innocent and the good?

I was listening to the "conservative' John Bachelor on radio last night, and he and the moron he employs as his 'source' and straight man, (I forget his name right now), made the assinine assertion that Pope Pius XII tried to appease Hitler and the Nazis. I just cannot believe how utterly ignorant people can be. All the famous and powerful Jews of the time heaped nothing but praise and thanks upon Pius XII for saving the lives of so many Jews, (an estimated 800,000). Pius XII even went so far as to hire 1,200 new "Palatine Guards" within the Vatican grounds during the Nazi occupation of Italy.... all of whom turned out to be Jews in disguise.

12 posted on 01/18/2005 10:55:59 PM PST by TheCrusader ("the frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the Churches of God" - Pope Urban II, 1097 A.D.)
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To: Coleus; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


13 posted on 01/18/2005 11:00:23 PM PST by NYer ("In good times we enjoy faith, in bad times we exercise faith." ... Mother Angelica)
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To: NYer
The lies and vilification against this saintly man just never stop.

The persistence of the liars and attackers in the face of repeated proof that they are wrong is remarkable.

They are not attacking HH Pius XII alone -- it is an attack on Catholicism and, by extension, all Christianity. Somebody wants very badly to destroy the church.

"Can it be . . . Satan?"

14 posted on 01/19/2005 6:05:13 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Coleus
>>>>>>Such assistance was not limited to the Jews in Italy. Throughout Europe, Jews were aided by Catholic clergy and lay persons inspired by Pope Pius XII’s example. Hundreds of stories of moral courage in the face of Nazi persecution were repeated over and over.<<<<<

WWII was horrible time for the RC Church but this does not justify broad and incorrect generalisations.

Europe includes Independent State of Croatia as well. Unlike other parts of Europe, in Nazi Independent State of Croatia RC clergy actually took part in extermination of Jews, Serbs and Roma in death camps. Besides an active role in forced conversions, some priests, like Franciscans Filipovic and Rendic were murdering with their own hands. RC nuns were running the concentation camp for Serb children, the only such camp in WWII.

Franciscan priest Rendic

Franciscan Filipovic

Official policy of Croatian Nazis was to kill, expell and convert to RC all Serbs (1/3 of Croatia's population) and make Croatia 100% RC within 10 years and they almost succeeded (murdered over half a million) Regardless of that, Nazi state of Croatia was fully endorsed by PIUS XII. Holy See remains silent about the gross crimes committed by the Croatian Nazis in the name of RC faith to the present day.

There was no danger of RC Church being abolished in Croatia and Pius XII actions can not be explained as "protection of Church from destruction"

Even worse, after WWII, Vatican helped Croatian and other Nazi war crininals to escape justice.

At that time Hitler was dead and presented no threat to the RC Church. Nazis were helped out of Pius XII free will.

This amounts to being accomplice and accessory after the fact in Nazi crimes.

15 posted on 01/19/2005 6:44:19 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
This has been thoroughly debunked in multiple threads on FR, most recently earlier this week.

Individual priests were guilty of serious crimes - but in the case of Croatia the worst offenders were publicly excommunicated by the Pope. The Pope's emissary intervened in Croatia to attempt to stop the misconduct. That he was only partially successful does not place blame upon him, but upon the renegade priests who perpetrated the killings.

The lie that the Pope helped Nazis escape to Argentina was thoroughly debunked earlier this week. The only "evidence" is a tinfoil hat conspiracy book which is itself based on a work of fiction, The Odessa Files by Frederick Forsythe. The supposed O.D.E.S.S.A. probably did not exist and certainly did not involve the Vatican.

Try to keep up to date before you become complicit in spreading these vile stories.

17 posted on 01/19/2005 7:26:34 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother
>>>>>>Try to keep up to date before you become complicit in spreading these vile stories.<<<<<<<

I wish you were right. Unfortunatelly, it is not "ODESSA FILE" as you think, it is reams of files in Federal possession.

NARA has boxes and boxes of documents accessible to public. The Army Investigatory Records Repository contains a file on the USTASHA, and it still classified.

Read some of it.

As always, if in doubt, follow the money

Then, decide by yourself whether your comment "Try to keep up to date before you become complicit in spreading these vile stories" is fair one.

18 posted on 01/19/2005 8:06:58 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
You're a nut...

From the same "follow the money" link ...papal Rome was responsible for the assassination of U.S. President Abraham Lincoln...

19 posted on 01/19/2005 8:41:55 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
>>>>>>You're a nut... <<<<<

Do you know what is imperfection

I am talking about the official documents in U.S. possession describing how Vatican helped Nazis after WWII.

It is the originals that count, not where it is reported.

Following your logic, no newspaper report could be taken seriously because of the cartoon page in the newspapers.

Nice attempt to derail serious discussion though.

20 posted on 01/19/2005 9:10:39 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
The tin foil "Vatican is the root of all evil" path you seem to be on is not healthy or reality based. The evidence you offered is based largely on conjecture and a twisted desire to promote falsehoods against the Church. The bit about the Lincoln assassination being a Vatican plot was not in the "cartoon page" it was a "serious" expose on one of the nefarious plots concocted by the Vatican. As for the rest of your "evidence" Just because it looks scholarly, doesn't mean it is.
21 posted on 01/19/2005 9:28:56 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
>>>>>The evidence you offered is based largely on conjecture and a twisted desire to promote falsehoods against the Church. <<<<

You thread into explaining my motivation, not discussing the evidence. My motivation does not affect the veracity of evidence.

Take a look at U.S. National Archives and Records Administration site.

And rest assured, I have no "twisted desire to promote falsehoods against the Church".

But I have desire to tell the facts.

22 posted on 01/19/2005 10:02:54 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
Again, these accounts, event hough found in the NARA, do not represent fact. They represent the research and writings of people with an ax to grind or agendas to push.

No doubt there were, are, and will be rotten ba$$tards at the Vatican, but you seem bent on smearing the entire Church because of the sins of some of its members. Look in a mirror next time you feel like casting a stone.

BTW, do you believe that the Vatican was complicit in the assassination of Lincoln?

23 posted on 01/19/2005 10:14:51 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
If someone were to post exerpts from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", the post would be yanked and the poster banned.

And rightly so.

This ... stuff ... is of no more worth than "The Protocols etc.".

24 posted on 01/19/2005 10:22:50 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: DTA

It is called impeaching credibility, and it is perfectly legitimate.


25 posted on 01/19/2005 10:26:11 AM PST by Petronski (Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?)
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To: DTA
As others have said, just because you find something at an official repository of documents says nothing to the truth of the contents.

All sorts of crazy stuff is filed in the Archives, including KKK manifestos, UFO abductee ravings, and writings by those who believe the CIA has implanted monitors in their brains.

And the website you link to is obviously a showcase for nutcases.

When you have some valid, properly sourced documentation, post it, please.

26 posted on 01/19/2005 10:31:23 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: DTA
My motivation does not affect the veracity of evidence.

It most certainly does.

24-9-68.

The state of a witness´s feelings toward the parties and his relationship to them may always be proved for the consideration of the jury.

27 posted on 01/19/2005 10:37:19 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: conservonator
>>>>BTW, do you believe that the Vatican was complicit in the assassination of Lincoln?<<<<

No I do not. But it has nothing to do with the topic, ie. Pius XII support to the Croatian Nazis during and after WWII. Archbishop Stepinac who was in charge of forced conversions was promoted to Cardinal and beatified after the war.

Speaking of belief, do you believe in Pius' XII Crusade War?

28 posted on 01/19/2005 10:40:42 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
Well if you don't, you can't quote that website.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus is a tried and true legal maxim.

It clearly applies in this case.

29 posted on 01/19/2005 10:43:44 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: ArrogantBustard
"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

Man I haven't seen that one whooped out since about 1999 here.

How you doing AB?

BigMack

30 posted on 01/19/2005 10:53:38 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (aka: Horselifter, Mackdaddy:)
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To: DTA
I don't believe anything you post about anything. You have no credibility.
31 posted on 01/19/2005 10:57:22 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Fine thanks. How's the Emerald City?

haven't seen that one whooped out

No need ... Nazi's aren't too popular around here. Unfortunately, other form of idiotic bigotry seem to have a following.

32 posted on 01/19/2005 10:58:31 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
idiotic bigotry

LOL...that always seems to come up when you and I talk. :)

Have a good day bud.

BigMack

33 posted on 01/19/2005 11:01:25 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (aka: Horselifter, Mackdaddy:)
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To: AnAmericanMother
>>>>>The state of a witness´s feelings toward the parties and his relationship to them may always be proved for the consideration of the jury.<<<<

This is true for witnesses. Witness attitude toward the accused can affect wintness memory and even cause false memory recollection.

But, I am not a witness. I believe that you have overlooked this detail.

We are talking about written documents in Government possession.

Regardless what I or you think about the document, we can not change it. We can only choose to speak about it or to remain silent.

Why there is so much of blunt logical fallacy whenever there is serious discusion about Vatican's role in WWII and post WWII events?

34 posted on 01/19/2005 11:01:45 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
But, I am not a witness. I believe that you have overlooked this detail.

Your arguments are only as valuable as your credibility. Merely linking to documents is not pursuasive. Neither are your 'explanations' of what you believe those documents prove.

35 posted on 01/19/2005 11:07:57 AM PST by Petronski (Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?)
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
< shrug >

Look me up on a thread where idiotic bigotry is not the topic, and we can talk about something else.

36 posted on 01/19/2005 11:09:44 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: DTA
We are talking about written documents in Government possession.

The link is merely a search result for 10 documents in which Pavelic's name appears. You haven't produced any actual documents or internet postings of same. I guess you're claiming that if we went to the archives and took a look at that raw dossier, we'd find something incriminating the Vatican? If so, what?

At this point, YOU are the only witness around, and YOUR feelings are clearly conspiracy-oriented and anti-Catholic. Your motivation would impeach your statements in court, and that is a far more stringent test than we are required to apply in conversation.

As somebody said up the thread, this level of paranoia about the Vatican isn't healthy.

37 posted on 01/19/2005 11:15:32 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother
>>>>>Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus is a tried and true legal maxim.<<<<

Agreed, but again, this applies to witnesses.

Since you asked for documents, here it is:


38 posted on 01/19/2005 11:18:41 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA

39 posted on 01/19/2005 11:25:33 AM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: DTA
OK, I've indulged you and read the thing.

This is an American document which is a retrospective report regarding "visitors" in the custody of an American intelligence unit, who had been "completely processed in accordance with current directives and requirements" but needed to be moved out of the reach of the Soviets, who wanted them returned to their custody. They are referred to as "defectees" so they are apparently on the run from the Soviets. Could be Nazis, but could be intelligentsia or Austrian, Hungarian or Czech military that the Soviets wanted to eliminate (see Katyn Wood.)

The Americans employed the services of one Father Dragonivich, who is identified as a "Fascist, war criminal, etc." to move these individuals.

Not a word about the Nazis, not a word about the Vatican.

If this is the best you can do, it's nowhere near good enough to support your claims that the Vatican was involved.

40 posted on 01/19/2005 11:31:16 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: conservonator
If this is your trump card, tough luck. Document I have posted can be easily tracked down and checked against the original.

If you feel up to it, this is a job for you, no security clearance needed. Only bring clean socks and clean underwear to avoid embarrasment when caught :-)

41 posted on 01/19/2005 11:40:11 AM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA

Nice job producing those documents.


42 posted on 01/19/2005 12:06:43 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: AnAmericanMother; SJackson; dennisw; kosta50
>>>>>If this is the best you can do, it's nowhere near good enough to support your claims that the Vatican was involved.<<<

Let's see. RC Priest uses the premisses of Catholic Institute of San Girolamo in Rome to hide Nazi war criminals before spiriting them out to South America. He keeps Ante Pavelic, fuehrer of Croatia hidden there for 2 years before spiriting him out for Argentina.

His superior, Monsignor Juraj Madjerec, the head of The Institute supports the clandestine operation without informing Vatican, although Institute is under Vatican iurisdiction. Father Draganovic, also uses National Cahtholic Charity (see scanned document) while spiriting hundreds of 'refugees" out of Italy to South America.

National Catholic Charity did not inform Vatican about what is going on, who are the refugees, where the money is going and so on.

Last but not least, no one in Vatican enquires why large amounts of money are flowing to San Girolamo institute from Swiss bank.

In other words, Vatican operates as a commune withot subordination.

Is this believable? Sure. Everything is posible with blind obedience. German Nazis believe there were no concentration camps.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. It is quicksand.

43 posted on 01/19/2005 12:34:25 PM PST by DTA (proud pajamista)
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To: DTA
Not a trump card just a simple reminder that documents are not always what they appear. Again, the simple fact that there are bad people in positions of power doesn't mean that the organization is corrupt and illegitimate to the core. And that is what you are attempting to portray.
44 posted on 01/19/2005 1:03:00 PM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
Not a trump card just a simple reminder that documents are not always what they appear. Again, the simple fact that there are bad people in positions of power doesn't mean that the organization is corrupt and illegitimate to the core. And that is what you are attempting to portray

Don't think that's what he's trying to portray. But a little acceptance of culpability would be nice. The anti-semitism in NT writings have done much to foster attitudes over the years. It wasn't until Pope John XXIII that the word "perfidious" was taken out of the blessings regarding Jews. The same people always flock to the defense of Pius XII, the quiet one, on these threads.

45 posted on 01/19/2005 1:09:50 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Has the Catholic Church ever done anything before 1950 that benefited mankind, in your opinion? And if so what? As far as your comment on recognizing culpability is concerned, I can't think of an organization that has dome more to make amends for the sins of some of it's members than the Catholic Church. The fact that no amount of Mea Culpas will satisfy some speaks volumes about them.
46 posted on 01/19/2005 1:16:00 PM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
Has the Catholic Church ever done anything before 1950 that benefited mankind, in your opinion?

I enjoy the Friday night fish frys. :o)

47 posted on 01/19/2005 1:24:47 PM PST by malakhi
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To: DTA
Lets pretend that all that you believe is true, that the Vatican's totally complicit in the rape and pillaging of the Serbs (I'm assuming your a Serb) and that the pope had his hand on the tiller of the events you refer to. Lets pretend it's all true..

So what.

The Mass is still valid, the host once consecrated still becomes the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ. And the Church, not the men who administer to it, will still be spotless, the pillar and foundation of truth.

What will change?

48 posted on 01/19/2005 1:26:17 PM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: malakhi
I enjoy the Friday night fish frys. :o)

Nothing like a mess of deep fried great lakes walleye with mounds of coleslaw and fries accompanied by a golden, frosty mug of beer...OK, that's one;)

49 posted on 01/19/2005 1:29:00 PM PST by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: DTA; St. Johann Tetzel; Maximilian; Land of the Irish; Mark in the Old South; NYer; fatima; ...
St. Maximilian Kolbe, starved and killed in a Concentration Camp so a Jewish man could live.
50 posted on 01/19/2005 1:33:32 PM PST by Coleus (What was Ted Kennedy and his nephew doing on Good Friday in 1991? Getting Drunk and Raping Women)
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