Posted on 02/10/2005 11:30:48 PM PST by thor76
Our Lady of the Roses and Cardinal Spellman against permanent deacons...
"Why are you now planning to take married men, making them what you call deacons, to give the sanctity and holiness, the grace in marriage to My sheep? What right have you to change the rules and the direction?" - Jesus, May 23, 1979
Non-celibate deacons in the Roman Rite: a break with Tradition
Fr. James McLucas explains that "The preparation for optional celibacy began with the introduction of the permanent diaconate following the Second Vatican Council." Although it was claimed that this change was nothing more than the restoration of a classic practice, many Church leaders "remained silent, however, about the fact that there had never been a Holy ‘Order’ that was non-celibate since the mandating of celibacy in the Western Church." Fr. McLucas goes on to say that "The Vatican signaled early on its growing indifference towards celibacy within Holy Orders by permitting widowed permanent deacons to remarry. This contradicted an ancient practice that even the Eastern Church, which permits a married clergy, does not allow." ("Emasculating the Priesthood," Fr. James McLucas)
(Excerpt) Read more at tldm.org ...
The issue of permanent, non-celibate deacons is a very timely one - with some folks openly questioning the churches discipline on clerical celibacy.
ping
May 23, 1979 ??
Permanant?
That is the date of the alleged locution. Assuming it to be true, it would not be the first time in history that Mary, saints, or even Our Lord himself has spoken to a priviledged soul.
It is not for me to stand in judgement of Veronica Leuken and her supposed locutions. I dont make the news - I just report it. However, if should be noted that Christ himself has appeared to some priviledged souls in the past. St. Faustina Kowalska would be a prime example - and she was given many messages, including the Divine Mercy devotion.
If one were to click on the link and read the entire article - which has some very interesting quotes from prominant writers and clergy on the subject of the non-celibate diaconate.
It would provide some food for thought......even if you do not consider Bayside to be credible.
Furthermore, the "revelations" contain statements contrary to Catholic teaching including references to "Rapture" like events and to my knowledge, none of Mrs. Lueken's predictions have come to pass.
Finally, it was condemned outright by the local bishop.
The "apparitions" will be found "thought-provoking" only by those who already believe that everything which currently occurs in the Church is the result of a conspiracy.
Those who respect Catholic teaching and the Pope will find these "apparitions" bogus.
LOL!!! Veronica Luekens was dismissed as a mental case by the Diocese of Brooklyn in 1973.
You are scraping the bottom of the barrel when you use this imposter to justify your positions.
Aren't you one of those "by their fruits, you will know them" people?
Well, the permanent diaconate has ordained over 800 men per year over the last 25 years, on average. That's twice the number of men who've been ordained to the celibate priesthood.
The permanent diaconate is the only clerical vocation that continues to grow dramatically.
Oh, Jesus has on a most beautiful red velvet gown, tinged in gold all about the edging. And I can see Jesus’ slippers; His are a tan. It looks like some type of an animal skin, but they’re tan, and they’re open. His feet are very evident in His slippers.
And, if Luekens' account is to be believed, Jesus doesn't know Church History:
"Understand well: when I appointed the Apostles there were no names given as cardinals or bishops; but Peter was the first Pope, the leader, and would you say not that the Apostles were the first bishops? And after that they chose from out of multitudes, seven whom you call deacons and listed as deacons, but they were truly priests at that time.
As we all know, the early deacons were truly deacons: they did not celebrate the Eucharist, but assisted the bishops only. The office of priesthood came about in the second century, when bishops were not able to personally preside at every gathering of Christians.
Laying aside the source of the article, Cardinal Spellman is a reliable source, and I believe he had a well reasoned argument. He was not opposed to the perm diaconate in principle, just in actual practice as he deemed it unnecessary. Wouldn't the church desires more priests than more deacons? Makes sense to me.
However, fast-forwarding to now. We have the exact situation he foresaw. I don't imply causality, because I believe this is far down on the list of causes for the decline in vocations. But, if one were to think practically as Cardinal Spellman did in his time, I think the existence of a permanent diaconate is now a necessity. They can perform a significant number of priestly functions outside of the Mass, and they are usually not paid, saving the church the expense of supporting these men. I realize I am departing from the TLM status quo on this. But I, like Spellman, do not oppose the permanent diaconate in principle. I do oppose the way and the reasons it came to be existent today. Furthermore, in my experience, I can count on one hand the number of permanent deacons I have known to be theologically and liturgically orthodox. The rest of them I have found highly questionable in their words and in their demeanor.
So, I offer a present day solution to this issue. Use the permanent diaconate as it now exists in places where the number of priests are substantially low. In other places, either phase it out or transform it into a more clerical function. What do I mean? Well, hypothetically, if I were a deacon today, I would don a cassock and collar whenever I was in the presence of parishioners I serve, perform the liturgical roles proper to my office in their fullest extent possible, always use the title "Rev. Mr." in all correspondence. In other words, I would act as if I were no different than a deacon in the seminary, except that I would be married.
Can a deacon actually wear clerical dress? I assumed the only reason why seminarian deacons wore clerical attire was that they were seminarians, not that they were deacons. My only thought is it could get easy to confuse a priest and a deacon when they are both wearing a cassock or other form of clerical dress.
Sinky,
Do you wear anything that distinguishes you from the other parishoners on Sunday, but also from the priest?
Ping!
When priests and seminarians (i.e. all those in the clerical state in some way) understand that they are "set apart" and fulfill a unique role, they well understand that dressing the part is the norm. Seminarians should (and actually do in some places) dress in the same way as a priest. A deacon, because he is ordained to holy orders, should distinguish himself from a layman. In the case of a permanent deacon, I believe he should be in clericals at all times in public. Of course to an unknowing third party, any of these men would be assumed to be priests, but that is an honest case of ignorance, and is easily corrected by a kind word of the part of the cleric.
But that doesnt change a thing! They cannot do things that ordained priests can do, namely, give absolution and say Mass.
Nice job, youve changed the subject of the whole thread in just a short time! Kudos!
Many of the permanent Deacons around here (NoVA and MD) wear clerical black almost all the time ... as have almost all the religious Brothers (not ordained at all) that I have known. Except for Franciscans ... they wear brown or grey robes.
I think you, along with everyone here, understands what I mean by orthodoxy. In fact, orthodoxy is an objective term, and that is what I imply by my statement. You are lucky that the deacons you know are better fit to serve. Some of use are not that fortunate.
In case you didn't understand the first time...I said "in my experience". I cannot speak for others in this regard, but you seem to assume I did.
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