Posted on 03/13/2005 7:16:00 PM PST by churchillbuff
....In a shift whose ideological breadth is unusual in the fragmented Protestant world, a long-standing wall around Mary appears to be eroding. It is not that Protestants are converting to Catholicism's dramatic exaltation: the singing of Salve Regina, the Rosary's Marian Mysteries, the entreaty to her in the Hail Mary to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Rather, a growing number of Christian thinkers who are neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox (another branch of faith to which Mary is central) have concluded that their various traditions have shortchanged her in the very arena in which Protestantism most prides itself: the careful and full reading of Scripture.
Arguments on the Virgin's behalf have appeared in a flurry of scholarly essays and popular articles, on the covers of the usually conservative Christianity Today (headline: The Blessed Evangelical Mary) and the usually liberal Christian Century (St. Mary for protestants). They are being preached, if not yet in many churches then in a denominational cross section—and not just at modest addresses like Maguire's in Xenia but also from mighty pulpits like that at Chicago's Fourth Presbyterian Church, where longtime senior pastor John Buchanan recently delivered a major message on the Virgin ending with the words "Hail Mary ... Blessed are you among us all."
This could probably not have happened at some other time. Robert Jenson, author of the respected text Systematic Theology, chuckles when asked whether the pastor of his Lutheran youth would have approved of his (fairly extreme) position that Protestants, like Catholics, should pray for Mary's intercession. "My pastor would have been horrified," he says, adding, "The pastor was my father." Yet today Catholics and Protestants feel freer to explore each other's beliefs and practices. Feminism has encouraged popular speculations on the lives of female biblical figures and the role of the divine feminine (think The Red Tent and The Da Vinci Code). A growing interest, on both the Protestant right and left, in practices and texts from Christianity's first 1,500 years has led to immersion in the habitual Marianism of the early and medieval church. And the influx of millions of Hispanic immigrants from Catholic cultures into American Protestantism may eventually accelerate progress toward a pro-Marian tipping point—on whose other side may lie changes not just in sermon topic but in liturgy, personal piety and a re-evaluation of the actual messages of the Reformation.
The movement is not yet prevalent in the pews. And it has its critics. While granting that Mary shows up more in the New Testament than some churches recognize, Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Southern Seminary, charges that those who use her full record to justify new "theological constructions" around her are guilty of "overreaching," "wishful thinking" and effectively "flirting with Catholic devotion." Yet Lutheran theologian Carl Braaten, co-editor of an essay collection on what might be called Marian upgrade, claims, "We don't have to go back to Catholicism. We can go back to our own roots and sources. It could be done without shocking the congregation. I can't predict how exactly it will happen. Some of it will be good, and some of it may be bad.
But I think it's going to happen." .....
People had an emotional need to have a soft female who could also be understood to be sinless, so the doctrine was invented. However, this contradicts the teaching throughout the entire Bible about the depravity and sin of every single human being. That includes Mary and all the saints.
"It's probably fair to say that 100% of the individuals whose existence has been prophesied in the Bible had a special relationship with God that the rest of us can only marvel at, but fully understand.
There aren't very many of them BTW."
100%? Actually, there are a lot of folks prophesied about in the Bible that had no relationship with God - you know, the bad guys :p
Degrading to the truth.. What a concept...
Are you a democrat.?.
These so called prophecies have already been debunked. Your specifics for each prophecy are subjective interpretations that cannot be proven from the actual text recorded by Lucia. The third prophecy actually has nothing to do with the attempted assasination of the Pope but instead revealed that a future Pope would turn his people over to Satan through a pact made with Satan and that's why each Pope since 1960 has refused to reveal the contents, lest he be assumed to be the traitor Pope.
So, if you actually believe these so-called prophecies, catholics will be turned over to Satan by the Pope himself - someday.
The Lutheran Church has always recognized St. Mary, The Mother of Our Lord day on Aug 15 and the Visitation of Mary day on May 31. It is the truly catholic thing to do. Worshiping the Saints is an inovation. If the new emphasis on the BVM is real, let's hope it doesn't fall into works righteousness. Not much chance of that happening, I realize :)
LOL, no, are you?
Try reading the words of Martin Luther above. It might help you to study and pray rather than attack. It certainly would be the "Christian" thing to do.
"You believe Martin Luther to be among the "oldest Christian communities"?"
Nope, but the Catholic and the Orthodox sects of Christianity agree on Mary. They predate Martin Luther by quite a bit.
Do tell, what sect do you call your own?
"But it never says to pray to her or through her."
Correct.
"The Bible says she was blessed above all women."
Actually it says "among" women in my KJV.
Who is referred to as being "Blessed above women?" Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite. Judges 5:24
Good grief! As a Catholic, let me say that Mary does NOT 'get in the way' of our worship of Jesus Christ our Lord. Please understand that Catholics know the difference between a Saint and God.
IMHO, this article is media 'fluff'. Treating the "Da Vinci Code" as a point of reference for anything other than 'fiction' is a hint how shallow the article is.
Regarding your post #50...I was very touched by this post...I am not a Catholic, and like you, I dont care to get into the debate going on here...but what you said, about Mary being a role model, and a refuge for mothers hit home for me...
My older boy, was diagnosed, many years ago, with a rare and usually terminal type of leukemia...my heart was broken, and our whole family was scared to death of what was going to happen next, ,to our son...
We were in the military at the time, and luckily for us, the hospital on base was a Military Medical Center, as opposed to just a Military Hospital...and thankfully there was a pediatric oncologist at this hospital...
Now there were many military chaplains posted to this medical center...some were Protestant, one was a Catholic Priest...all of them, are always alerted when a situation such as our arises, and they all make their calls, and try to help us and console us, and provide us some relief...
And being Protestant, I naturally leaned more towards the Protestant chaplains.....but it was the Catholic Priest, who helped me the most....I was so distraught, and so sad, and so broken hearted....and watching my son endure horrible chemotherapy, and all the side effects, just wore on me...I wondered to myself, how was I going to be of strength to my son, when I felt like I was falling apart myself...
This priest, saw my suffering, and sat with me, and knowing that I was not Catholic, he offered to me, the strength of Mary, what she suffered when she saw Jesus on the cross, what suffering she endured at His death...
He reminded me, that God knew Marys suffering, and that He knew my suffering as well...that I had with Mary, one small, small point in common, that we both watched out sons suffer...and 15 months later, when my son died, this priest again reminded me, that Mary suffered then, as I was suffering now...and that God saw that suffering...and that somehow gave me strength to go on...
This priest said to me, just what I needed to hear, when I needed to hear it...somehow, keeping Mary every present in my heart and in my mind, gave me the strength I needed to be strong for my son...
We had the service for my son at the Medical Center Chapel...and this priest gave the service for my son...I know my son would have preferred this priest to speak for him, more so than any of the other chaplains...
I still am not Catholic...I am a work in progress....
But my husband was Catholic, tho not a practicing one...we married in my Methodist Church...but our boys were baptized Catholic, because my husbands grandmother was afraid if the boys were not baptized Catholic, they would not get to heaven...so out of respect for her we had the boys baptized Catholic...
We buried our son in a Catholic cemetary along the California coast, right next to his favorite uncle...being as he was baptized Catholic, he was considered Catholic, and thus allowed to be buried in this cemetary...I asked the priest(a different priest, from the one at the Medical Center)performing the service, if I could also be buried next to my son, when the time came...I explained that I was not a Catholic...he assured me, that I could be buried there...that the Catholic Church would never separate a mother and son, even in death...
So altho I am not a Catholic, it did take a Catholic priest to bring Mary to me, to point me toward her as a role model, to assure me that my suffering over my sons death, was also a suffering felt by Mary...
Truly, I am not like Mary in any way at all...but she did provide to me, how a mother can remain strong, even at the death of her child...
Again, thanks for your post, it brought all that back up to me...
So none of the other 22K+ are? M'kay.
Oh wow, I'm so sorry about your son dying. I'm glad you got help in your time of need. I can't imagine the sadness. You will see your son again, of this I have NO doubt.
<....Marys says "they have no wine"....Jesus says "it is not my time."
Mary says "do as he says.">
I too will use short portions of scripture: "Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."
That was the deity side of Jesus letting this blessed woman know who's boss. Yet he honored the request. If I ever addressed my mother as "woman", at the least, I'd get a little sermon on respect (she's a strong 75).
Jesus, the man, died on the cross. That's what Mary gave birth to. Deity does not die. The man Jesus cried "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me" when he felt that Father in him, "doing the works"(John 14:10) depart so he would indeed die. If the Spirit of God had stayed in him, he would never have died. Just like the loaves and fishes, an endless supply of blood could have kept him alive. (Hmmm, I feel a sermon coming on...)
Pardon me, but as a Catholic, this is not true. Mary is venerated, but not worshiped. She is the Mother of God, and as such, in a church that believes in everlasting life, we can go to her as our spiritual mother and ask for her prayers.
"Catholics would do well to remember that there was a thriving assembly of believers ordained by the Creator of the Universe 2,300 years before the abomination that Constantine the sun worshipper made the state religion of the Roman Empire. Ever hear of Abraham? Have you ever read Romans chapter 4?... As well, a little humility is in order. The BIBLE you people carry, the first 2/3rds of it was written in Hebrew - not LATIN. And the 'church' did not give it to you - the faithful Hebrew scribes that the 'church' despicably persecuted for 1,900 years did."
So your point is we should become Jewish?
Your snide allegations against Rome's first Christian Emperor aside, remember that there wouldn't be a Protestant church if Europe wasnt Christianized. You'd probably be worshipping Woden if it werent for the works for 1500 years of the members of a church, ie saints like Augustine, Boethius, Ignatius, St Paul, St Patrick and St Columba, St Cyril, Venerable Bede, Pope Gregory, etc.
"Shoot, even the so-called 'New Testament' was not a 'church' creation. It existed and was in use over 100 years before any Roman 'canon'. Look up the word 'canon'. Scripture is GIVEN by the Almighty - not SANCTIONED by a group of fallable men."
Well, if you are going to be cynical about Constantine, recall that HE WAS THE ONE WHO CALLED THE CHURCH ELDERS TO NICEA IN 325AD, where they worked out the articles of faith of the church in the Nicean Creed. In similar councils of that period, they went through the process of determining which writings were and were not part of the canon and which were apocrypha. The early church writings was a period of assimilation and discovery of the key parts of Christian faith and casting off that which was not essential. They may be given by God, but it took men to carry the faith forward into the world, to organize and uncover truths through theology, and to evangelize and Christianize new communities.
A church you apparently mock was the "rock" that built Christendom and Western civilization. ... Yes, a little humility is in order.
The canon wasn't closed until after 400. And, BTW, Catholics and Orthodox use all the books that the Jews use - including the ones that Luther removed.
Hail Mary, full of grace!
No one said she was. Catholics think of her as Mother of God, hence, they imagine that if you beg her enough, she may ask her son. No one ever said that she is the co-Redeemer!
Constantine only legalized it, he didn't create it.
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