Revelation 4:11
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Posted on 07/19/2005 7:07:09 AM PDT by topcat54
From Gary DeMar's multi-part response to Ed Hindson's article in the May 2005 issue of the National Liberty Journal on the topic of "The New Last Days Scoffers".
When Jesus answered His disciples' questions about "when these things" related to the temple's destruction would be and what signs would indicate His coming, He said, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). "This generation," therefore, is the timing key. If we can know what the Bible means by "this generation," we can determine the timing of the events Jesus describes. Every time "this generation" is used in the Gospels, it always refers to the generation of people who were alive when Jesus spoke. "This generation" never means a future generation. Thomas Ice, an associate professor of Religion at Liberty University and the Liberty Theological Seminary, in a radio debate with me, admitted that each use of "this generation" in the Gospels, except the one used in Matthew 24:34, refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. In his written debate with Kenneth L. Gentry, Ice writes: "It is true that every other use of 'this generation' in Matthew (11:16; 12:41-42, 45; 23:36) refers to Christ's contemporaries, but that is determined by observation from each of their contexts, not from the phrase itself." This means that seventeen times it means Jesus' contemporaries, and one time it means a future generation. William Lane disagrees:
"[T]his generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus (see on Chs. 8:12, 38; 9:19) and there is no consideration from the context which lends support to any other proposal. Jesus solemnly affirms that the generation contemporary with his disciples will witness the fulfillment of his prophetic word, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the dismantling of the Temple.
Like he does with Acts 2:16, Ice must add words to Matthew 24:34 to get it to say what he needs it to say. For example, in Charting the End Times, Ice and LaHaye reconstruct Matthew 24:34 to read this way: "The generation that 'sees' these things will not pass away till all is fulfilled." In the LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible, of which Ed Hindson is one of the editors, the verse is given this treatment: "[T]he future generation that will live to see all the signs listed in the previous verses fulfilled in their lifetime" will not pass away until all is fulfilled. The near demonstrative "this" is removed, and from 5 to 19 words are added to make the verse refer to a future generation. And this is interpreting the Bible literally? Hindson writes the following in the Liberty Bible Commentary:
[T]he previously listed signs will continue to multiply throughout the Church Age and reach their ultimate climax at the end of the age in the generation of those who will live to see the entire matter fulfilled in their lifetime.
There is nothing in the entire context of the Olivet Discourse that says anything like this. Dr. Hindson is reading his dispensationalism into the chapter. William Sanford LaSor writes, "If 'this generation' is taken literally, all of the predictions were to take place within the life-span of those living at that time." D.A. Carson takes a similar position: "[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke. . . . [T]o make 'this generation' refer to . . . the generation of believers alive when eschatological events start to happen, is highly artificial." There you have it. If Matthew 24:34 is interpreted literally, it refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking.
Matthew 24:33 tells us as much: "even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door" (Matt. 24:33). The first use of "you" certainly refers to Jesus' first-century audience. So why wouldn't the second use of "you" refer to the same audience? Hindson comments that this verse "has caused some to speculate that these predicted events only relate to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, within the disciples' lifetime." He doesn't explain why this is not what it means except to reference commentaries by John Walvoord and R.C.H. Lenski whose explanations are convoluted and do not deal with the way "this generation" is used elsewhere in the Gospels.
You will notice that Matthew 24:34 expressly states that it's "this generation" that will not pass away until all the things listed in the previous verses take place. How significant is the use of "this" rather than the non-specific definite article "the" that is substituted by Hindson, LaHaye, and Ice? The use of "this" in the NT tells us that what's being identified is near either in time or distance. By changing "this" to "the," the entire meaning of the verse changes. Instead of a specific generation, it now reads as if it could be any generation. "This" is a near demonstrative, and as the name suggests points "to someone or something 'near,' in close proximity." Near demonstratives "appear as the singular word 'this' and its plural 'these.' The distant demonstratives, as their name suggests, appear as 'that' (singular), or 'those' (plural)." The near demonstrative "this" is used nearly 950 times in the NT, and it always refers "to something comparatively near at hand, just as ekeinos [that] refers to something comparatively farther away."
But you also have the "dreams and visions" crowd who allegedly gets their information from secret revelations that God is supposedly giving to a select few in these "end times". In many ways they are worse off than the traditionalist date setters because they are relying on "voices" in their head.
There's really no good way to respond to their silliness other than to point out 1) their "prophecies" are so non-specific that they amount to nothing, or 2) point out the many failed predictions of the past, some from the same "dreams and visions" crowd.
Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
***
ALL the PEOPLE of the earth will be gathered together against it (Jerusalem)! They are going to come up against Israel, God's Chosen, The Apple of His Eye and try to take something that DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM any way they can. They will then attempt - attempt to reign in a NEW ONE WORLD Government, a New Leader to rule over all the Earth and they will ATTEMPT (but fail) to bring Peace to the World. Those who do this to Israel and God's Chosen, Israel, those who curse them, will themselves be Cursed by God.
Yes we are very close!!
Acts 2:17-18: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Exactly what temporal powers labor to accomplish.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
==> Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; BLOOD, and FIRE, and vapour of smoke:
==> Act 2:20 The SUN shall be turned into DARKENESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, before that GREAT and notable day of the Lord come:
***
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
I will stick with what Peter said, since he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The prophecy that he was quoting was from Joel 2, and it was being fulfilled at that time.
"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free." (Gal. 4:-21-31)
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Heb. 12:22-24)
God delights in His heavenly Jerusalem, the Church. We are the apple of His eye.
Jerusalem below represents what is fleshly and in bondage.
"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh," (Phil. 3:3)
"Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,'" (1 Peter 2:7)
Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Funny how people never quote the next verse: In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ..."
Horses and riders? One could see where this was fulfilled long ago in the days of Messiah's first appearance when horses and riders were prominent.
Revelation 4:11
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Did this happen at Pentecost?
==> Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; BLOOD, and FIRE, and vapour of smoke:
==> Act 2:20 The SUN shall be turned into DARKENESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, before that GREAT and notable day of the Lord come:
Sez who? Give us a drop-dead date. Will it absolutely happen within the next decade? The next 50 years? 100 years?
"Very close" is nonsense unless you can back it up with something other than "dreams and visions".
==> Act 2:20 The SUN shall be turned into DARKENESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, before that GREAT and notable day of the Lord come:
Tell us what it means (from the Bible, of course). You need to decide what it means before you can ask the question "has it happened?".
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel - Chapter 3
Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly [and] speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
Joe 3:5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I [am] strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness [is] great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I [am] the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence [against] the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood [that] I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
Silliness you say. Non-specific prophecies? What about your 1000 years? How long is that? The time we are living now is 19 centuries after the "last days." You say that Satan will be released for a brief time. Will we know when it happens? Should we watch and be ready?
How can you have a rigid definition for "this generation" and spiritualize everything else that dosen't fit your definition?
People need to decide very soon whether they are going to Bless Israel and His Chosen, The Apple of His Eye and stand beside them and the Land that He gave to Them
....or....
Are they going to have a hand in taking it away from them and wrongfully claiming it for their own. Are they going to join with All the rest of the World that will come up AGAINST ISRAEL.
I was speaking of modern "dreams and visions", not biblical prophecies that can be interpreted in the light of the infallible Word of God.
My understanding of the phrase "thousand years" is based on what I read in the Bible, not what has been whispered in my ear in secret.
BTW, I believe the "thousand years" does cover a very specific period of time, namely from Christ's first coming until His second coming. Can't get more definite than that.
You say that Satan will be released for a brief time. Will we know when it happens?
The Bible doesn't indicate that we will. I don't expect to see a red form with a pointy tail literally running around. So I wouldn't want to speculate any further.
How can you have a rigid definition for "this generation" and spiritualize everything else that dosen't fit your definition?
Actually, it all spiritually discerned. "This generation" is just as much a spiritual reality as the "thousand years".
Sorry. I don't buy it. 
What happened was the Rapture. We all got transported to Heaven 2000 years ago and this is it. Somebody forgot to mention that Heaven is run by a committee of six billion.
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2:9,10)
I prefer to identify God's chosen according to what the Bible tells me, not according to geopolitical lines drawn up during the last century. All Jews, along with gentiles, who trust in Jesus the Messiah are blessed of God, the true apple of His eye.
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