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To: RnMomof7; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Frumanchu
If God held the same agape love for all men then he would have saved them all.

Not so. Outox gar egapesen o qeox. God loved the world with an agape kind of love.

It is entirely unavoidable - Christ is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world. You can try to redefine "world" all you like, but that is pointless. What is clear is that God loves even the reprobate, and that Jesus Christ died also for the non-elect.

This is not in contradiction with "definate atonement." All definate atonement requires is that it be applied only to the elect. It is still offered to every man, woman, and child. It requires linguistic gymnastics to make the Bible say anything other than the fact that God loves the whole world, including the non-elect, and gave his Son as the propitiation for all men, including the non-elect.

274 posted on 08/02/2005 3:43:06 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: jude24

Amen.

Also to the application.


275 posted on 08/02/2005 3:52:02 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: jude24; xzins
That was well stated.

Except you need to learn how to spell definite.

281 posted on 08/02/2005 5:05:35 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: jude24
Jude.. I will take you back to the beginning

What is the "world" God so loved that he gave His life for it " (true agape love )

kosmos {kos'-mos}

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3 3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor.5:19

When the jews spoke of the "world" they were usually speaking of The gentile nations around them. So the words that the Messiah was for "the world" was truly shocking to them. this was after all the JEWISH messiah they were looking for.

So the question is NOT the meaning of the love of Christ for the elect, that surely is agape love, it is for whom did Christ hold that love? . If Christ holds agape love for those he will condemn for an eternity of fire one might really be concerned what kind of love that is.

If Christ had agape love for all men and died for all men then God is a liar and he is demanding a double payment for what was purchased at the cross.

You make the cross of questionable effect

286 posted on 08/02/2005 5:19:33 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: jude24

"It is still offered to every man, woman, and child. It requires linguistic gymnastics to make the Bible say anything other than the fact that God loves the whole world..."

Friend, it is you who has limited the word and did a somersault with Kosmos. Why do you limit it strictly to the human species? What about puppies and kitties and flowers? Aren't they part of the Kosmos? The verse clearly states that God so loved all that he created (Kosmos) that he gave his only begotten Son. Now what?


291 posted on 08/02/2005 5:30:17 PM PDT by Jonathon Edwards
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To: jude24
...and gave his Son as the propitiation for all men, including the non-elect.

The verse you are quoting says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Meaning, that forgiveness of sin is only found in Him, and all who would have their sins forgiven must come to Him. That, once again, does not address ability of the sinner to come, it merely states that Jesus is who he must obtain forgiveness from, because there is no other. The sinner's ability to avail himself of this forgiveness is a whole other matter.

Christ is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world

Please show me the verse that states this. Your statement is at odds with your professed Calvinism. By this statement, you make the atonement general and non-specific, where as you ought to know that the Bible teaches that the atonement is particular and specific. It is a Penal Substitutionary atonement, wherein Jesus bore the ACTUAL punishment for SPECFIC sins, and sinners.

What is clear is that God loves even the reprobate, and that Jesus Christ died also for the non-elect.

This statement is in direct contradiction to your professed Calvinism.

325 posted on 08/02/2005 8:25:04 PM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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