Israel, Gaza, Land, and the “Rapture”

American Vision ^ | 19-Aug-2005 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

If there is no physical restoration of the Jews to Israel, how can the unfulfilled prophecies of Zechariah regarding Jerusalem and the nation of Israel ever be fulfilled?

The answer is that they are fulfilled in Christ. If you read Romans 11 carefully you'll see there is no physical promise, that is, there is no promise of restoration to the land or rebuilding of the temple. The promise is that they will be regrafted into the root, that is, into Jesus Christ. "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" (v. 24).

The promise is that wild branches (gentiles) and natural branches (Jews) will make up one completed and restored entity. If there is a promise having to do with the physical land, etc. then it is extended to both Jews and gentiles, since that is the only way to read the passage.

Are you saying that "spiritual" Israel (i.e., saved Christians of whatever ethnic background) are going to be living in Israel and in Jerusalem when these events happen?

Again, the land is not the focus of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Their focus was entirely spiritual. The people of God was one, made up of Jew and gentile. "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him." (Rom. 10:12)

I don't think so. Christians are not the "house of Judah." You are trying to rob the children of Israel of promises God made only to them.

Not robbing anyone of anything. Jews find their greatest blessing when they are identified with Jesus Christ and regrafted into the root, not by inhabiting a small plot of ground in the middle east at some indeterminate and limited time in the future.

"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom. 4:13)

[Cecily]

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe God made many, many concrete, physical promises to the children of Israel regarding their future and their land, and He will fulfill them all, and not detract from the Gospel in any way in the process.

[Jonathon Edwards]

Thanks for the ping.

While I find our dispensational brothers and sisters passion to hold onto God's promise admirable I am dismayed they hang onto a hope that is inconsequential in comparison to what is actually promised.

[Seven_0]

"But with Gaza Israel is ceding territory once pointed at by Christians as an example of God's fulfillment of prophesy(along with the Sinai Dessert that Israel gave to Egypt). This was the land where Christians have stated "the dessert will bloom..." and pointed to the greenhouses in Gaza as proof."

I look for Israel to give up at least a part of Jerusalem, for 42 months (Rev 11:2).

[topcat54]

I look for Israel to give up at least a part of Jerusalem, for 42 months (Rev 11:2).

I take it that's not a "literal" reading of Rev. 11:2.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

Thanks. Bookmarked for a return visit.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

From a dispensationalist view how much land constitutes the reforming of Israel?

I think most point to the boundaries given in Numbers and Deuteronomy, from the Nile to the Euphrates. Of course, they neglect that God had much more in Mind for Abraham and his descendants than a small parcel of land in the Levant.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

Nothing in the New Testament is said about a return to the land or a rebuilding of the temple.

I haven't read the article yet, but taking ONLY this in context, I disagree....

The WHOLE Bible is what we are to look at.

Where?

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

is well taken by those who see modern events in the middle east as a theological diversion from the truth of Christ's gospel.

Some even go so far as to make it another "gospel", with another means of salvation other than faith in Christ, namely, that of being born a natural Jew.

In their "rebuilt temple" theory, they go so far as to teach that temple sacrifices will be efficacious for washing away of sin and ceremonial uncleaness, which is counter to the Gospel and the Sacrifice of Christ made once and for all for Atonement of the sins of Israel(OT and NT saints). That borders on blasphemy.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

Like it or not, the Jews are still God's chosen people...
That is not what Scripture teaches. It is not the natural descendants of Abraham who are Israel, it is the spiritual descendants of Abraham who comprise Israel, both natural Jews and adopted Jews, who are in Christ. Romans 2:28-29;

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 9:6-7;

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

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It is those who are the children of "Promise" who are true Israel.

[Cecily]

I can pull any number of verses out to prove that God's covenant with Abraham, confirmed through his physical descendants Isaac and then Jacob is unconditional and irrevocable. Yes, there are promises regarding "spiritual" Israel, but there remain in force promises to physical Israel as well. These are not incompatible.

[topcat54]

I can pull any number of verses out to prove that God's covenant with Abraham, confirmed through his physical descendants Isaac and then Jacob is unconditional and irrevocable. Yes, there are promises regarding "spiritual" Israel, but there remain in force promises to physical Israel as well. These are not incompatible.

But the unbiblical view is to continue to divide the people of God along racial lines, with promises for one group but not another.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

"... there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Col. 3:11)

You don't find a racial attitude in the NT, among Jesus and His apostles. You find a consistent effort to bring both Jews and gentiles together into one body. Any theory of future things which divides the people of God along racial lines is unbiblical.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

Your false dichotomy between "physical Israel" and "spiritual Israel" is one that flies in the face of what Paul teaches, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ."

I'm sorry, but dispensationalism is a rather new concept, one that has never been recognized, nor taught by the Church, and is the spawn of a vision by Margaret McDonald in the 19th century in Scotland, counter to what the Church as always taught and believed.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Jesus Christ is the true Israel. All those who have a part in His resurrection are the children of Abraham and spiritual Israel regardless of their ethnic background.

Amen.

The more I read about the peculiar assertions of dispensationalism, the more these beliefs look to be political, rather than spiritual. I'm amazed people don't see through these temporal connections in light of the past 100 years of political turmoil in the restructuring of the Middle East.

"Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?    

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.    

Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?    

But he spake of the temple of his body.    

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said." -- John 1:18-22

Jesus Christ is the third temple; the only door by which we find salvation. The old covenant of the law finds its fulfillment in the new covenant of grace.

"Previously saying, Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them (which are offered according to the law),

then He said, 'Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.' He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." -- Hebrews 10:8-10

To miss this point seems like missing the entire reason for Christ's existence.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" -- 1 Corinthians 3:16

[Cecily]

I'm not taking positions based on dispensationalism. I believe as I do based on the whole counsel of God, not random verses plucked out to proof text a particular position.

[Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy]

I believe as I do based on the whole counsel of God, not random verses plucked out to proof text a particular position.

If that were true you would not reject the clear teaching of Paul as cited to you. In reality, what you do is to pluck out snippets that fit into the philisophical system you have been taught by dispensationalists.

[Cecily]

I don't reject any of Paul's teachings. You ignore many still-unfulfilled prophecies concerning physical Israel. I have already said that I don't find God's promises to spiritual and physical Israel to be incompatible, and that Jewish people need Christ's atonement to save them from their sins just like anybody else. So - stalemate.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But the unbiblical view is to continue to divide the people of God along racial lines, with promises for one group but not another.

Amen.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1:23-24

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All prophecies are fulfilled in Christ.

How can you go wrong by believing that?

[HarleyD]

With all due respect Cecily, it does sound as if you've dug in your heels on this matter. Quite frankly I could never understand eschatology. Before topcat I took a more middle of the road approach after I saw a number of Hal Lindsey's theories go down the tube. The Gaza strip pullout is just another example of a long running problem with people who interpret scripture based upon events.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with ALL of topcat's positions but I have to agree with him on just about every scriptural interpretation that he states in regards to the end times. Doesn't sheer logic seem to argue against God singling out Jews over Christians? I'm still not sure I can clearly articulate the views but I find myself drawn towards topcat's arguments.