Skip to comments.Questions Arise Over Seminary Inspections
Posted on 09/21/2005 5:34:27 AM PDT by marshmallow
Beginning early next month, teams of specially appointed Vatican investigators will visit Chicago area Catholic seminaries to determine whether priests are being trained properly and to what degree homosexuality is present on campus.
The Vatican has ordered "apostolic visitations," as the inspections are formally known, of all 229 seminaries and houses of formation for priests in the United States. The visitations have been anticipated for several years and are, in part, a response to the clergy sex abuse scandal that has rocked the American church since 2002.
While some church leaders insist the visitations are meant to examine how well priests are being trained spiritually and intellectually, others say the inspections are a thinly veiled attempt to root out homosexuals in the clergy.
"They are basically checking to see if we are in compliance with what the church has asked us to do," said the Rev. Thomas Baima, provost of Mundelein Seminary at the University of St. Mary of the Lake, the largest seminary in the United States. Nine "apostolic visitors" are to begin their examination of Mundelein's 205 seminarians and 40 faculty members the first week of October. The visitors will also interview about 100 men who have graduated from Mundelein in the past three years, Baima said. "The issue is, if we're training men for chaste celibacy, we want to make sure there's no sexual activity going on at all."
Awaiting a mysterious document
The Rev. Robert Silva, head of the National Federation of Priests' Councils, does not believe the visits are "witch hunts" for gay clergy, but he does think the Vatican is placing undue emphasis on homosexuality.
"We need not to focus on specific homosexuality, but we need to focus on the integration of our own human sexuality and the ability to live a deeply committed virginal life that is fully and wholly sexual," Silva said.
Of the 56 questions in the Instrumentum Laboris, a 13-page instructional document outlining how visitations will be conducted and the kinds of questions apostolic visitors will be asking, six questions are marked "must be answered." Only one -- "Is there evidence of homosexuality in the seminary?" -- explicitly mentions homosexuality.
The apostolic visitations are getting under way as Catholics await the arrival of a Vatican document addressing homosexuality in the priesthood. The document has long been rumored to exist, but some observers thought it might have fallen by the wayside in light of Pope John Paul II's death, said the Rev. Donald Senior, president of Chicago's Catholic Theological Union, where four apostolic visitors are expected to begin interviewing faculty in December. The visitors will return in March to interview some 170 religious-order seminarians enrolled at CTU.
It is not known what the rumored Vatican document will say, but some observers see hints in comments made recently by Archbishop Edwin O'Brien, the American prelate who is coordinating the apostolic visitations for the Vatican. "Anyone who has engaged in homosexual activity, or has strong homosexual inclinations, would be best not to apply to a seminary and not to be accepted into a seminary," even if the man has been celibate for more than a decade, O'Brien told the National Catholic Register.
Gay priest derides 'witch hunt'
Such remarks belie the true intent of the apostolic visits, according to one Chicago-area Catholic priest who is gay. "Flying in the face of reality and scientific evidence, rather than dealing with the real issue of psychic immaturity in priests who are either gay or straight -- which is clearly the problem for pedophiles . . . -- they are going on a witch hunt to get rid of all the gays," said the priest, who requested anonymity. "It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
"Why stop at seminaries? Why not deacons, priests, bishops, archbishops and cardinals? Are they going to be asked if they are homosexuals and if they are, be forced to resign their positions?" he said. "If that happens, there will be many empty offices, many empty parishes and many empty sees."
We should be so lucky.
A smaller, de-sodomited Church works for me.
Isn't a seminary inspection what Monica L. was doing for Bill C.?
They need to fire this moron for starters.
LOL! That was my first thought, too. Sounds like a plan to me. Especially the bit about the bishops.
I have always thought that one of the things that has protected gay priests has been a cadre of gay (and I mean actively gay) bishops. I'm sure we all have our candidates for this list, starting with the holder of a certain major West Coast see. But until somebody starts rooting out the bishops who have fostered and protected the gay environment that has grown in seminaries, dioceses and religious orders, the problem is not going to be solved.
Remove just one of them for that and all the rest would get the message. After all, they can probably dump their boyfriends faster than they can dump their comfortable benefits, adoring treatment by the press (since they are all liberals, of course), and all the other perks that go with the job.
" they are going on a witch hunt to get rid of all the gays," said the priest, who requested anonymity. "It would be funny if it weren't so sad."
That should cut their pedophilia problem significantly.
Thats not sad at all.
Ten-to-one he's a poof.
If you lisp what he said in your head, it sounds very familiar.
Agreed. This should have been done in the American seminaries 40 years ago. It would have saved so much suffering.
The problem wasn't generally pedophilia, though there might have been a few. It was usually pederasty and the complaintants were males.
The pederast priests didn't go after little children, boys or girls. They went after the altar-boy age, usually close to teenage....pederasts. They are just as sick, only their sickness is rather more specific than pedophilia.
I'm all for it. If that's his main complaint, I say give him what he wants.
In every discussion I ever get into about queers, either with them or their apologists, Ancient Greece comes up. Pederasty raised to an almost official level.
Now, the argument is always made that queers are not pedophiles [and how homophobic of me to suggest such a thing!]and that Greece was a pinnacle of homosexuality[and we so admire Greek culture...].
I would wonder if the same sort of "study" will be done in the nunneries.
Thanks, marshmallow, for posting this!
**Why not deacons**
Deacons are usually married! How much does this writer know about the subject?
"We need not to focus on specific homosexuality, but we need to focus on the integration of our own human sexuality and the ability to live a deeply committed virginal life that is fully and wholly sexual,"
Translation: "Please don't root out the poofters!"
NONE. (Pun intended.)
Male homosexuality is disgusting to both men and women.
Female homosexuality is disgusting to women....but a "turn on" in pornography to men. Men just love to see women "do it" to each other.
It's so odd.
Being a straight woman, I never figured that out.
Do they, now? All of them?
"but a "turn on" in pornography to men."
I suppose thats "true" but it certainly is not for me...which makes me wonder how true it really is. I know there is a market for it, however, and many times there is some in a "straight" film....
I'm starting to sound like an expert, aren't I?
Good for the Pope. As someone who is not a Catholic I have always wondered why the Roman Catholic Church would continually tolerate people who are dedicated to tearing her down from within.
I do think that there might be too much of a focus on homosexuality, not that it is insignificant. I am in a seminary, and we seminarians are going to take the opportunity to discuss intellectual and moral formation with the Apostolic Visitors. We feel short-changed that our formal formation is impoverished and often contradicts the holy Catholic faith. We are very much more traditional than our faculty. The problem is not with the seminarians. It is with what our formators are trying to pass off as authentic catholic teaching.
The Novus Ordo will fall like the Soviet Union if they go after the poofters.
For someone who apparently thinks only the Tridentine Rite is valid, you don't seem to know very much Latin. You want either "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus" or "nullus sol" -- "nulla solis" is nonsense, which is also true of your disgusting slap at all faithful Catholics who do not join you in your sectarian narrowness. Decry homosexuality in the Church, certainly--I join you in that; but explain the Novus Ordo as a homosexual conspiracy--that undercuts everything else you say.
As far as the focus on homosexuality goes, I think it's probably a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. Abuse settlements have cost the Church millions and that cannot continue. It would be nice to think that the visitation has been inspired by purely spiritual principles but a multi-million dollar hemorrhage will get the attention of any business owner- even a spiritual business owner like the Church.
I'm inclined to believe, however, that the homosexual question is intimately tied up with the larger question of heterodoxy and watered-down Catholicism. You may find that if the lavender mafia is flushed from the seminaries, the formation issues which you raise may also significantly diminish. I've always had a hunch, based on no particular scientific data, that there is a tie-up between sexual and theological deviancy.
Yes, and millions more alleged conspiracies never happened.
Good analysis. I think the tie-in between "deviancies" is that contemporary sexual deviants now crave the approval of everyone else, and the only way to get this is to manipulate theology so that it can serve as a defense - or if not that, at least be rendered so weak and meaningless that it cannot be used to oppose their program.
I don't think this is conscious or a conscious conspiracy. It is simply that people who are attempting to justify a sin will automatically gravitate to theological views that make it easier for them to do so. And if they are in charge of teaching theology, which sadly seems to be the case in a number of venues, they are naturally going to build a program around "interpretations" that are favorable to them. This automatically rules out orthodoxy and leads to theology that is severely watered down at best and heretical at worst.
That "millions more alleged conspiracies never happened" is easy to say, impossible to prove. How many secrets do not exist?
But you, brilliant as you are, apparently believe that most alleged conspiracies are actual conspiracies and since it is impossible to prove that they do not, you choose to believe that they do. Fine. Believe what you wish. It's just foolish to do so.
No, you're missing the point I wish to make. An alleged conspiracy can be examined to be likely true or false, according to what is observable or known. If conspirators learn they are under examination, they change behavior, thereby proving "it's all nonsense." We will never see a successful public examination. I have come the opposite conclusion; far more conspiracies actually take place than are alleged. The nature of the critter is to remain invisible after the deed is done. My objection is the declaration: conspiracy = looney tunes.
"I have always thought that one of the things that has protected gay priests has been a cadre of gay (and I mean actively gay) bishops."
You are so right...they are known as the "lavender mafia" and they are powerful. We need to eliminate all of them from the church.
There's a great saying, possibly from St Athanasius (but don't quote me on that) that "most heresies start below the belt."
I don't think we will see a crackdown on convents because there just haven't been many cases of lesbian nuns sexually abusing female minors. In fact I can't recall any such cases happening in this country. I don't doubt that there are some lesbian nuns who are having sex with each other. But as long as they keep it to themselves and within their communities the problem will correct itself with time. Women's order that have embraced leftism and worse are dying out and are not attracting new vocations.
Very few loony people realize they are loony (being out of touch with reality constituting, as it does, one of the characteristics of insanity), so your denial that you are loony in seeing conspiracies under every bed, your protestation that you are the sane one because you believe in the prevalence of conspiracies even beyond what are alleged (do you realize how many conspiracies are alleged?), is what one would expect from someone over the edge. At least your screen name is appropriate. Cheerio!
The difference should be obvious, it comes from natural hygienic instincts. A man seeing 2 women can imagine himself joining in, a woman's first instinct on seeing 2 men is "if they're putting THAT THERE there's no way it's getting anywhere near HERE".
That's an excellent explanation. I'm filing it.
My, my, my, aren't we picky. :o)
My cousin the priest, who is 82 years old, undoutedly would not like it.
My gay nail guy would also NOT like to see it. Neither would his partner.
Well, there are three men who wouldn't. Dang, you are right.
True, pornography is a strong element in "normal" Sleazywood movie fare. It's called "art" though I use the term loosely.
It doesn't take much thinking to see the connection T.V./movies and the acceptability of drugs, prostitution (now called "sex workers), violence, filthy language, shacking up, out-of-wedlock births, promiscuity, gambling, hooker-fashions-for-teenage-girls, pornograhy masking as "art" and child porn/abuse.
Sleazywood has consistently and relentless portrayed what USED to be deemed unacceptable in our morality as glamorous, fun, desireable and morally correct.....a normalization of evil. It all is really just coarseness, lewdness, vulgarity....well, you get my drift.
Sad to say, we can all call ourselves "experts" on this because it seems to be shoved in our face and rammed down our throats every time we turn on the boobustoobus or try to see a movie.
Americans COULD simply NOT watch, but.....
I'm right with ya.
Too bad DRUGS, booze and/or money make many women sometimes see things differently.
Pornography's availability makes promiscuity and kink (sadism, masochism, bondage, submission, domination, punishment, etc.) a real factor in people's lives. It's very private, but ugly, vicious and sick. The "models" they use are beautiful young people who are always smiling, laughing and having such a good time.
There are even documentaries and T.V. coverage about it -- not to mention movies about it.
If I stare at this sentence long enough, will it eventually start to make sense?
How very ... interesting.
If you stare at the ravings of a madman will they ever make sense?
Americans COULD simply NOT watch, but.....
You'd be left with little to watch at all.
I like to play cards and enjoy the slots. I like adult things.
BUT: they are ADULT things and are simply not suitable for children.
My parents and I am sure many others had the fortitude to say "its not for you." Period. End of discussion. Just like no coffee, no whiskey and a whole raft of "no's".
Parents don't say that any more. They seem to believe their kids are simply small adults who should be treated like adults. Why, if its ok for me to do that how can I deny my kids?
They have gone insane and we are raising kids to be insane.
Your examples are well taken: I have a grandaughter who is TWO. I have looked at clothes for her and some of them look like they belong on a cheap whore: fake leopard capris? some kind of blouse thing with maribou collar and wrist bands?
But her mother thinks such trash is "cute". CUTE!??
One thing I have done which worked was to strongly write to the stores that sell this garbage and decry it. Most have email adresses and it takes just a few seconds to dash one off. I did that for some misandrous garbage clothing they were selling and it has quietly disappeared.
Complain and don't buy it and that will help.
But if they are selling the stuff and making money on it then they will continue to do so.
We cannot expect the merchants to be the moral arbiters for our kids. We have to be.
Too many parents don't seem to want to do that any more.
Moving from ECUSA to the Catholic Church is a little like escaping hurricane Katrina by going to Houston.
I can only claim two years of High School Latin taught by communists posing as teachers but check out wikipedia and 1000 other sources on something called google.com