The Creed - latest revisions proposed by ICEL

WITL ^ | September 27, 2005 | Rocco Palmo

[NYer]

Is This What You Believe?

I came across a copy of the latest revisions proposed by ICEL -- here's where the Creed is at....

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only-begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father:
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
(At the following words, up to and including and became man, all bow.)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried.
And rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life:
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,
I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Amen Amen and Amen?

[RobbyS]

Heavy handed clericalism, and like that of Archbishop Cranmer, with a theological agenda at variance with tradition.

[TotusTuus]

This appears much closer to the version the Byzantine Rite uses for English.

I like it much better since many of the words and phrases are better translations.

"Visible and invisible" as opposed to "seen and unseen".
"Consubstantial" as opposed to "one in being".
"Incarnate of the Virgin Mary" as opposed to "born".
"Adored and glorified" as opposed to "worshiped and glorified".
"the Only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages," is much better than it's current counterpart.

And, of coarse, use of the first person singular as opposed to plural.

Good news in indicating that the past horrible translations of ICEL are not only coming to an end, but are being reversed. The heterodox cannot be happy about that...

[iowamark]

What is ICEL?

And don't you have a better source than somebody's blog?

[Desdemona]

Much better. Against the Latin "Credo", "we believe" grated. Credo means "I believe" not we.

And some of the other language makes more sense.

[Desdemona]

18 months since I 1st started attending Mass in my life and I have yet to get the Creed memorized--now they go and change it?

Don't worry. There are people who have been attending Mass for decades who don't have it memorized. And when the ICEL is approved, we'll all be in the same boat.

[conservonator]

What is ICEL?

International Commission of English in the Liturgy

[TradicalRC]

Wow, NYer, thanks for this thread. I do prefer more traditional translations. That said, it's also nice to have a poetic ear and definitely NO politically correct "inclusive" language. I prefer Holy Spirit to Holy Ghost, I also prefer Worshipped to Adored.

[Kolokotronis]

"The Nicene Creed (really the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) was originally written in Greek. I don't know the Greek, but I do know the Latin, and I can tell you that this English translation is a much more careful rendering of what the Latin text actually says than is the current official English version."

Its closer to the Greek too...except for the filioque innovation which, of course is not in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed at all.

[Kolokotronis]

"The Nicene Creed (really the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) was originally written in Greek. I don't know the Greek, but I do know the Latin, and I can tell you that this English translation is a much more careful rendering of what the Latin text actually says than is the current official English version."

Its closer to the Greek too...except for the filioque innovation which, of course is not in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed at all. In a couple of other areas its a bit off too, for example, "consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father". Similarly, "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is probably fine, but the Greek word "afeseen" might be better translated "remission", but that's probably more a matter of taste. Otherwise, this is a good trnslation.

[Frank Sheed]

When "pro multis" is again translated "for the many" and when the priest finally says "Mysterium Fidei!--The Mystery of Faith!" without having US responding "Christ has died, etc.", the end is near.

Frank

[JohnRoss]

I should point out the original Greek is plural, wheras the Latin of the Roman rite in the creed is singular. The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo).

Also, if you ask me, the filioque has to go.

[Kolokotronis]

"I should point out the original Greek is plural, wheras the Latin of the Roman rite in the creed is singular. The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo)."

The original proclamation of the Creed had as its opening word "Pistevomen", We Believe, and referred to the Holy Fathers who were doing the proclaiming. In Eastern Rite Liturgies, it has always been, so far as I know, "Pistevo", I Believe.

[NYer]

The Mozarabic translation of the creed says Credimus(plural) rather than the singular (credo).

Thank you for this piece of history!!! Only this evening I mentioned these proposed changes to my Maronite pastor. He has a degree in Biblical Linguistics and said the same thing. The first christians were formed into communities and the original texts used the word "we" because "we are a community of faith; hence we believe".

[NYer]

And, of coarse, use of the first person singular as opposed to plural.

See posts 31, 32, and 33.

[sanormal]

Let us not forget that the Son is certainly NOT "one in being with the Father."

And let us remember that the "acclamation" Christ has died, etc. is NOT an acclamation at all and is NOT found in the Latin Missal. It was an American experiment after the council that the US bishops asked nicely to keep. Sounds silly, too, in my opinion.

[Pyro7480]

Also, if you ask me, the filioque has to go.

I'm going to go "old school" on you. ;-) (From the "Roman" Catechism, the Catechism of the Council of Trent)

"Who Proceedeth from the Father and the Son"

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.

Christ the Lord, speaking of the Holy Ghost, says: He shall glorify me, because he shall receive of mine. We also find that the Holy Ghost is sometimes called in Scripture the Spirit of Christ, sometimes, the Spirit of the Father; that He is one time said to be sent by the Father, another time, by the Son, -- all of which clearly signifies that He proceeds alike from the Father and the Son. He, says St. Paul, who has not the Spirit of Christ belongs not to him. In his Epistle to the Galatians he also calls the Holy Ghost the Spirit of Christ: God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. In the Gospel of St. Matthew, He is called the Spirit of the Father: It is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Our Lord said, at His Last Supper: When the Paraclete cometh whom I will send you, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. On another occasion, that the Holy Ghost will be sent by the Father, He declares in these words: whom the Father will send in my name. Understanding these words to denote the procession of the Holy Ghost, we come to the inevitable conclusion that He proceeds from both Father and Son.

The above are the truths that should be taught with regard to the Person of the Holy Ghost.

[Campion]

In a couple of other areas its a bit off too, for example, "consubstantial with the Father for omoosion to Patri really means more like "one in essence with the Father".

This is a slavish translation of the Latin, which is "consubstantialem Patri". "Consubstantialem" comes from "substantia," essence or substance; "consubstantialem Patri" means, of course, "of one essence (or like essence) with the Father".

[ninenot]

The first changes ALSO had the benefit of giving ICEL copyright-revenues--a LOT of revenues.