Posted on 09/30/2005 9:26:35 AM PDT by HarleyD
I'm only guessing here, but perhaps the writer belongs to one of the anti-semitic mainline churches - perhaps the PCUSA, who have divested from Israel. They need a new sign above their door - "ICHABOD"
I think you have a valid point and I believe the author would agree. A distinction should be made. God's plan of salvation only included one plan-justification by grace through faith. Gentiles, by God's grace and mercy were grafted into this system-not the other way around.
bttt
Name me one Jew (Christ notwithstanding) who was justified by the Law.
If the Church has inherited the covenants of Abraham, then we must keep the law as many, if not most, of the covenants were conditional upon keeping the law.
Why? None of the Jews kept the Law. They all failed miserably, every last one of them. Since none of Israel has kept the Law, I guess none of Abraham's descendants have much to look forward to when it comes to the covenant promises, huh?
Do I detect a bit of anti-Jewish or anti-Semetic leanings in his writing? IMO this is where replacement theology leads. It is not only unbiblical, it is, IMO, a highway to hell.
Here we go again. The AC-DC defense...
No one was "justified" by the law, but ONLY Israel was required to keep it. The Law applied to Israel and this Author says that the Church is Israel... the Only Israel... The Israel spoken of in the old testament and that the Jews were (apparently) NEVER "True" Israel.
If the Church is "true" Israel, then would not striving to keep the Law as God commanded Israel to do in the Old Testament be evidence of election?
IOW the fact that you do not ever even TRY to keep the Sabbath should be clear and convincing evidence that you are not part of True Israel, as Israel was commanded to keep the Sabbath and as far as I can tell that Commandment is still there.
Additionally if the Church were "True Israel" then the Church would be held to the dietary laws and rules of circumsicion and all the other ritual requirements to which Israel was bound.
The author here does not appear to speak of a new covenant, but insists that Christians are under the "ONLY" covenant. If, in fact, there is not at least a second dispensation, if in fact there is nothing "NEW" and that the Church is merely Israel, then the Church would still be held to the requirements of the law and all the distinctives that set Israel apart from the world.
My two cents.
Are Christians morally obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, or can we violate them at our every whim?
The Church is the covenant extension of Israel into the four corners of the world. The true Israel are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The New Testament Church is an expansion of God's covenant people beyond the ethnic, national Israel to all men. The Mosaic Covenant, like all other covenants, progressively build the covenant framework for the fulfillment of the Covenant of Grace given in Eden.
Tell me, how many Gentiles does it say were present at Pentecost in Acts2?
Wow! What a trite response.
How is the present condition since 1948 not an occupation of Palestine by the state of Israel? Was David Ben-Gurion the new Moses, to whom God spoke directly from the mountain? Was Menachem Begin the new Joshua? Was the King David Hotel bombing akin to ancient Israel's purge of the land at the direction of the Lord?
*chuckle* I'd been considering making just that point. There's indeed a bit of a disconnect between claiming to be "the new Israel" and refusing to keep the Torah commandments that God gave specifically for Israel.
It stems primarily from a inability to distinguish national, ethnic Israel from spiritual Israel (hint - only one is truly God's people).
Gee, let me count the ways:
1) The Jews had been quietly buying back the land at exhorbitant prices since the 1800s. They rightfully own all that land.The return of Israel to the land is prophesyed all throughout Scripture, topcat. To deny it, you have to systematically ignore--I'm sorry, "allegorize"--away whole books of the Scriptures. Further, by calling the Israelis "occupiers" you are rejecting the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and siding with Allah.
2) Israel did not kick out the Palestinians. Those in the refugee camps either went there voluntarily to get out of the way of the supposed driving of the Jews into the sea in 1948, or were driven there by the government of Jordan after their failed coup attempt.
3) Palestinian Arab Muslims who did not turn on Israel have full citizen rights, including their own representative sample in the Knesset. This is better than the deal they got with any previous administration since
4) "Palestine" has never been a free and independant state since the Diaspora.
Call me funny, but that's not a position I would wish to occupy.
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you. You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!If God has not preserved national Israel, the natural branches, then there is no such thing as "Preservation of the Saints." You can't have it both ways.
--Rom. 11:17-21
So we're still occupying Native American lands then. Got it.
While the Law was given to the Jews it revealed to them they could not measure up to God's standards. God, OTOH, revealed Himself to Gentiles through the world although they would not acknowledge Him as God. The Jews had the law. The Gentile had nature. But no one does what is righteous-not one.
So what value is the Law? To show us no one is justified in God's sight. You cannot keep the Law. This is the message of Romans 1-4.
So....God stopped preserving His saints for almost 1900 years??
Both are God's people--national Israel is the root and the natural branches, and we Gentiles are grafted into that root by God's grace. Your theology is equivalent to saying that because I have an adopted brother, I am no longer my parents' firstborn.
No, it's simply recognizing that God wasn't lying when he said "They are not all Israel who are called Israel." Your theology is ignoring the fact that we Christians are the spiritual seed of Abraham who will receive the covenant promises. The inferior covenant has given way to the superior one.
The author gets it all wrong in the first sentence. He who would understand Sha'ul's epistles had better begin by understanding the Tanakh and the Gospel, since his letters assume a basic familiarity with the Scriptures he was commenting on.
He never stopped preserving Israel; in case you hadn't noticed, the Jews have successfully resisted assimilation for that whole period.
But if He had, what in the world makes you think that He would bother preserving you? That's the true meaning of Romans 11--and it's one you have no answer to.
No, it's simply recognizing that God wasn't lying when he said "They are not all Israel who are called Israel."
Clearly, you are a master at reading half an argument (Sha'ul's, not mine) and ignoring the rest in order to preserve your theology.
Ahem. Whose land is it originally? The Jews. Who gave it to them? God. Did the arabs EVER have a State there? No.
Israel purged the land ON THE ORDERS OF GOD HIMSELF. The arabs are indicriminately killing women and children. They have the same philosophy as Hitler. If you think the Palestinians are morally correct here, then I have to put you in the same category.
You keep ignoring the fact that God gave the land to the Jews, and no one else. By the way, the Native Americans were not pure as the driven snow - they were as violent and wicked as any white man - they were just outnumbered.
That is one purpose. The Torah is also to tell us what is sin and what is holy and just and good (Rom. 7:7-13). Therefore, you are left with two choices:
1) That the Church is not synonimous with Israel, and is therefore not necessarily bound by all the commands which God said were eternal commands for Israel, orPerhaps instead of cherry-picking a couple of quotes to support your theology, you should make a concentrated of everything the Scriptures have to say about God's Law. You might find a few surprises, like, "The Torah of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making the simple wise" (Ps. 19:7) and "Do we then make the Torah void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish (uphold) the Torah" (Rom. 3:31).2) That by not keeping the commandments that God set for Israel (the Sabbath, for just one example), you are deliberately sinning, and need to repent of that.
And on that note, an early Shabbat Shalom to everyone. I've got to leave early to do the prison thing this weekend.
You mean this present occupation of Palestine by Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy? Please be specific.
Further, by calling the Israelis "occupiers" you are rejecting the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and siding with Allah.
Actually, I side with neither the Israelis nor the Moslems in this fracas since neither party is demonstrably the religion of God. Both deny the triune God of Scripture therefore both are opposed to the religion of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who were all trinitarians. Both are false religions.
True religion is the Christian religion. We are the true inheritors of the promises to Abraham through Jesus Christ. Israeli and Moslems should be in debt to Christians that we allow them to live in our land.
"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, " (Rom. 4:13,14)
But as a Christian I'm sure you already knew that.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.