Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer
Rome, Dec. 08, 2005 (CNA) - After the Mass celebrated in Saint Peters Basilica, Pope Benedict marked the feast of the Immaculate Conception, paying homage to the statue of Mary in Rome's historic Piazza di Spagna .
Thousands of Romans flocked to the square to greet the German pope, on his first 'pilgrimage' to the sculpture of the Virgin .
The tradition of the papal pilgrimage was brought back by his predecessor John Paul II more than 20 years ago .
"I deliver to the celestial mother of the Redeemer the anxieties and hopes of humanity," the 78-year-old pontiff said. He called on Mary to grace mankind with her spiritual presence "in every moment of our existence, above all during moments of darkness and trials." The statue of the Virgin Mary stands on a column in the northern section of the piazza, just around the corner from the famed Spanish Steps known to all tourists .
The column was erected by Pope Pius IX in 1854 after he declared the dogma of her immaculate conception, meaning that Jesus' mother was conceived without the stain of original sin .
Ah. Listen your argument is ciruclar, similar does not equal same. Calm down, don't get your pants in a bunch. One day you will understand. It's not my job to convince you that your interpretation of what my Church teaches is wrong. Until then. . . .
I can, but you insist on saying that what the church teaches isn't really what it teaches. There is an objective way of doing this read the Catholic Catechism. If it is in there, that is what is beleived.
The argument is
1) The catholic church teaches X
2) your response is the Catholic church does not mean X it means Y.
The only respnose I can give is that it teaches X.
So technically, no I can not convince you that it teaches X when you insist that Y=Y and X=Y, no matter what I say. You are not putting forth a reasonable response to argument 1. It's mathematically impossible.
As we(hopefully) shall be after the general Resurrection.
"As we(hopefully) shall be after the general Resurrection."
Whoa partner!
Believers may be glorified after deeath, but they will never be omnipresent. Only God can do that.
"And as Luke tells us, Mary was the first of us to submit fully to the will of God"
Jesus tells us that those that do God's will are like brothers, sisters and a mother to him. But wait! I thought she was far closer than we could ever be!
If the universe is finite, and it is no matter how "unlimited," because it is God creation, then a man/angel can be at every point WITHIN IT at the same time.
"There is an objective way of doing this read the Catholic Catechism. If it is in there, that is what is beleived. "
What does the CC say about the mediatorial powers of Mary?
"So technically, no I can not convince you that it teaches X when you insist that Y=Y"
Are you stating the the CC's teaching is that Mary is NOT the mediator between Christ and man?
"then a man/angel can be at every point WITHIN IT at the same time."
Can you prove that with Scripture?
If you read your Dante, you will see what we mean by "closer." To be closer to God is to be holy, and the saints who are most holy are the "closest."
"If you read your Dante, you will see what we mean by "closer.""
Dante is political/theologial satire. It isn't scripture.
And the verse in view damages the uniqueness of the position of Mary. Mary is right there. Jesus does not point people to her, but directs their attention to doing the will of God.
Oh, I am speculating. But if we have bodies like Jesus's, then what is a wall? What is a thousand years? What is a "lightyear?" Already through science we know that a wall is not solid, and that space has properties we never guessed before.
No, he is doing something very radical in the context of middle eastern cultures. He is saying that the Church is more important than our own blood kin.
"He is saying that the Church is more important than our own blood kin."
Which it is, being that it's association is spiritual and eternal and flesh and blood is temporal.
But you still can't get around the other part.
Mary was the first Christian.
"..for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved."
Interestingly, the world behind "grace that he has granted" is the same word (used only once elswhere) behind Mary's aclaimation "full of gace".
In other words, the believer, (in Christ) has been made "full of grace" just like Mary.
"Mary was the first Christian."
Interesting. What do you base that on? That she was the first to hear the Gospel from the Angel?
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