Skip to comments.Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception
Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer
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After 30 years in mothballs, the Holy Father has restored ermine to the papal wardrobe.
There's Ganswein holding the umbrella.
"He called on Mary to grace mankind with her spiritual presence"
She's not omnipresent is she?
Ever since he became pope, I believe the white looks so good on him...in both senses. Ermine! What will Peta say?
Maybe it's time to pull out all the stops.
That was my question when I read this also. If that is not what is believed, how would the Pope's comment make any sense?
Perhaps I misunderstood his words, but I didn't conclude that was his meaning.
open car? God protect him.
Catholic teaching on this matter can be found, among other places, here: http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/0910-96/articl10.html
Mary has told one of her,servants,St. Catherine Sienna,that she is the channel through which graces flow from ..and said,"those who ask graces of me, I shall grant".
God gave Mary this "power" to be helper of those who call on her,as a Mother,to help them! Simple as all that ! That is what the Pope means.
Much better post! Thanks!
I am waiting and watching this Pope. Oftentimes, I do not like the look the plays about his eyes. Also, Ganswein is handsome but the look about his eyes does not impress me. This is most unpopular for me to say. V's wife.
A lot of older guys get pouchy around the eyes, what is it that bothers you? He strikes me as a kindly sort, despite his reputation as a "Rottweiler" . . . but then I like Germans, especially Bavarians.
" Mary has told one of her,servants,St. Catherine Sienna,that she is the channel through which graces flow from "
That is absolutely anti-Christian against the teaching found in the Bible.
John says of Jesus:
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Grace comes to us through Jesus Christ.
It is also a direct contradiction of the teaching of the Lord. Look at this:
"On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink." - John 7
He said, "Come to ME" not "Go to Mary".
"God gave Mary this "power" to be helper of those who call on her,as a Mother,to help them!"
Jesus, not Mary, is the person we should call on help us. Look at waht the scriptures say...
"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant... he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." - Heb 7
Who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?
Pope Benedict is a shrewd, introspective and brilliant man. I've noticed his eyes are very different from JP-2's, who exuded love and warmth openly. Benedict seems to be taking in everything around him, rather than expressing his own feelings. JP-2 was smart but more a man of the people, goodness and love seemed to flow from him. Benedict is not so personable, he's more guarded and an ultra-intellectual. Maybe that's what you catch in his eyes.
After reading some books, I believe the Holy Father is a very sincere man devoted to the Church. It's just that he can appear cold. But if you want to get some insights into his background and thoughts about the church today, you might like to read "Salt of the Earth."
If you want to take quotes from the Bible to justify your viewpoint, that can just as easily be done for Mary.
"The angel of the Lord appeared to her." That alone is amazing, as usually God sends his messages to people in dreams in the old and new testaments. But here, he sends a heavenly body.
"Hail Mary, full of grace!" That's not a Catholic made-up prayer, it's from scripture. Mary is the only woman who ever lived who is grace-filled, pure of defect, immaculate. This gives her a special place of honor among all humanity. This does not mean we worship Mary like we do God, but she is "blessed among women."
"Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." Mary and Jesus DO go together. You can't have one without the other. He chose her to be his tabernacle.
When Mary visits Elizabeth, and the latter cries "the baby leapt in my womb for joy." The future John the Baptist recognizes Jesus inside Mary. Could God choose to dwell in anything less that a perfect and pure vessel?
There have been only two perfect human beings on planet earth, Jesus and Mary. I don't see why some folks have such a problem with that. Mary herself has appeared in many parts of the world, not just in visions, but physically.
It's easy to dismiss Mary if you have never looked into Marian theology or the Church's teachings on Mary. Don't deprive yourself of your spiritual Mother. As Jesus said on the cross, "Here is your Mother."
And after his Resurrection, he glorified Mary by bringing her body and soul to Heaven. She is in the perfect state, as is Christ, which we may all attain someday.
We all agree Mary existed, that Jesus was born of a woman.
Besides the Bible, which can be twisted around to suit everyone, we also have 2000 years of history, revelations, mystics who spoke with Mary, Catholic doctrine which was revealed over centuries, not just made up on the whim of a pope.
But also, isn't it just common sense? This is the Mother of God! We know she has preceeded us to Heaven, we know that during his lifetime Jesus always honored and respected her, that as a child he was dependent on her for his every need. Should we not follow his example?
And there appeared unto him [Zacharias] an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
*******"Hail Mary, full of grace!"
Believers are told that they are also "full of grace" [caritovw] by Paul in Ephesians...
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one [caritovw] , the Lord is with you!
Eph 1:16 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted [caritovw] in the beloved.
*******"Mary is the only woman who ever lived who is grace-filled, pure of defect, immaculate."
What do you base this belief on - becasue it isn't in the Scriptures.
*******"Mary and Jesus DO go together. You can't have one without the other."
Jesus is Eternal God. I assure you that you can have Jesus without Mary. If Mary would have said "no" then God would have found someone else. What you are saying is borderline blaspheme.
*******"There have been only two perfect human beings on planet earth, Jesus and Mary."
There are five explicit references to Jesus' sinlessness in the Bible. Regarding Mary there are none.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?"
*******"Don't deprive yourself of your spiritual Mother."
The "mother" believers is the heavenly Jerusalem...
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
*******"Besides the Bible, which can be twisted around to suit everyone, we also have 2000 years of history, revelations, mystics who spoke with Mary, Catholic doctrine which was revealed over centuries, not just made up on the whim of a pope."
Every theological belief must be judged by it's argeement with the Scriptures! Even as Isaiah said...
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
And how can you be absolutely sure these appearances were really Mary? Remember, "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - Galatians 4:26
*******"Jesus always honored and respected her, that as a child he was dependent on her for his every need. Should we not follow his example?"
Yes we should! Starting here:
"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." - Matthew 12
May the Lord add His blessing to your posts. Thank You for your care here.
Paul may have instructed the Ephesians that they have, upon Christ's death and resurrection, been bestowed with spiritual graces(1:3-14) but he nowhere says Epeshians hail, you are full of grace! Nor is he an Archangel of the Lord, a significant distinction. It is Scriptural that Mary is full of grace, a statement not accorded to another woman elsewhere in Scripture, consequently a logical part of Tradition: many important things were not recorded but were known and occurred and held fast to in Tradition, but Mary's grace filled status is scriptural fact. And Paul says there are, for the Ephesians, spiritual grace but he does not go on to say that they are in the fullness of it or what would be the logic of this statement: "For this cause I also, hearing of the fiath in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and of your charity to all the saints, cease not giving thanks for you, making remembrance of you in my prayers, in order that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory may grant you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation unto the full knowledge of himself and enlighten the eyes of your heart to know wwhat is the hope of his calling, that the treasure of the glory of his inheritance among the saints" (1:15-19). In other words, these Ephesians are not there yet, but Paul prays that they may eventually be granted this fullness of grace.
There is no such qualification in the Lukan Narrative: "Hail full of grace the Lord is with thee" She is already full of Grace and with the Lord, whereas the Ephesians are still working on it, working it out, and with Paul's prayer. And Mary knows her place too and states: "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" Luke 1:48. Paul doesn't say this about himself, or others. Only Mary is allowed this proclamation. And of course, before Mary even allows this about herself, Elizabeth witnesses this for us: "Blessed art thou among all woman" singularly identifying our Lady as alone among all women as, well, singularly blessed. And somehow, while I am sure you are very nice, I think the Church is correct in accepting Elizabeth's testimony, after all she was specially qualified giving birth, as she did, to the man who baptised our Lord. As to Mary's sinlessness, well the tabernacle of the Lord, logically, could never be unclean. V's wife.
It was similar with the first Tabernacle, the one that Moses built in the wilderness: The Lord came down as smoke and filled the Temple!
1 Corinthians 6:19 (The teaching of the Apostle Paul):May the Word of God be believed! Our souls may magnify the Lord just as Mary's did, for He has chosen to make our bodies His tent in this wilderness until He establishes New Jerusalem! O! God's peace to Jerusalem!
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?
John 14:16-17 (The words of Jesus Christ):
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."
Who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?
At the foot of the cross STOOD Mary,and on the cross was her Son Jesus-they both loved all mankind-for the sake of the immortal salvation of the souls. Neither HAD to be where they were-but under LOVE suffered to save us.
Could you stand there? and watch an innocent relative die?
Mary,is not greater then Jesus,she is not God-BUT she was the MOTHER..and from this she is LOVED and respected,and reverenced in the Catholic Church I hope one day you'll KNOW THIS. No sin in it and I bet it pleases Jesus to see His Mother LOVED, and called on..just as you'd callon your own flesh- Mother, thus,love and like the folks who like your MOM. Simple.
"Mary,is not greater then Jesus,she is not God-BUT she was the MOTHER..and from this she is LOVED and respected,and reverenced in the Catholic Church"
So, who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?
That's excellent! I often wondered why +Luke elaborated so on the Blessed Mother, and not +John whose charge she was left in.
Equallly-because if not for Mary's "yes" there would be no Jesus and if NOT for Jesus' life,death and resuurection we could not get to Heaven.
Hey MurphE how about something on the last of my Post here.
We are in a relationship with God when we receive him, by his grace, and our faith, yes .30Carbine. But we are not unique, we are not proclaimed by an Archangel, we are not "full of grace" and, though the Holy Spirit resides in us, we offend the temple when we sin, which we do, we are fallen. She was not, nor could she have been by yes, even our own limited logic. It is inconceivable that God would choose as his vessel a vessel that was corrupt. Now, as to temples, yet they may be corrupt, otherwise, why would our Lord have to drive money changers from them? But the tabernacle? No, it must be pure. V's wife.
In Jesus' life there were mysteries, Luke's part was to explain the history of the glorious mystery of His birth in full detail. John's part seems to have been to intellectually convey the mystery of salvation more fully on an almost philosophical level. One recaps the past, one frames the future. This is my ignorant view. V's wife.
PM: So, who do you think loves you more - Jesus or Mary?
Rosary: Equallly-because if not for Mary's "yes" there would be no Jesus...
Rosary, even your Catholic friends will tell you that, though you may not have intended it, your statement is blasphemous. Jesus is eternal and infinite God. Mary is a finite, created being and her love could never come close to the Love which God has for you.
Reflect on Paul's prayer for believers recorded in Ephesians,
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith--that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
There is nothing contradicted in Rosary's statement. They love equally-he in his capacity, she in hers. Are their capacities equal? No. But that is not what you asked. In charity, V's wife.
I've always been impressed with the cruxifiction sequence in John, where Jesus bestows Mary as mother of the disciple that He loved, and then, seeing that all was completed, gave up the ghost.
His very last pre-resurrection act...which completed his work.
Hmm. Powerful stuff. Particularly when I reflect that I am a disciple, and that Jesus loves me.
It's frankly a little difficult, given the above, to get inside the heads of Sola Scriptura types who seem intent on scoring points off of Catholics by reducing Mary to a disposable status, and that's even before reading about the "Queen of Heaven" in Rev. At the beginning of chapter 12 she gives birth to the Christ. She is pursued and persecuted. At the end of chapter 12 she has many children, all of whom bear the testimony of Jesus Christ. It does not go on to reflect that many of her own seed deride her. That role seems left to "others."
V's wife's husband
I saw this episode last night... them cartoonist are crazy.
Protestants always say this in an attempt to minimize the Blessed Mother, and it never ceases to amaze me.
How is it that you claim to know what God "would have done" had Mary said "no"? Who are you??
You have no idea what God "would have done"; you can no more speculate about God's hypothetical reactions in hypothetical situations than you can turn a hair on your head white or black, to borrow a phrase of the Lord's.
And incidentally, claiming that grace comes through Jesus, not through Mary, is to deny the obvious Incarnational fact of the Christian faith that Jesus came through Mary!
You are going far, far off the rails, PM. If you stay on the trajectory you're on, you'll soon be a Jehovah's Witness or a B'nai Noach; not even a Christian anymore.
Mary is also a finite, created being who stands in the presence of God at this moment, and her love for us is greater than that of any earthly being we know.
How big a difference is there between finite and infinite?
But we have this treasure in jars of clay
to show that this all-surpassing power is from God
and not from us.
2 Corinthians 4:7
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
O! Beware that thou shouldst add a fourth person to the Godhead!
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord (we join Mary in this)
My spirit rejoices in God my savior
for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant (because of this, we participate, too)
From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me
and holy is his Name
He has mercy on those who fear him
in every generation
He has shown the strength of his arm
he has scattered the proud in their conceit.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones
and has lifted up the lowly
He has filled the hungry with good things
and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has come to the help of his serrvant Israel
for he has remembered his promise of mercy He remembers this promise of mercy through Mary! After all was said and done from Abraham, Israel, Moses, and so on these Patriarchs are dwarfed for He remembers His promise throught this young woman: Mary, the most highly favored one. God doesn't just select any old Abraham, Israel, or Moses. These were specific people. And she was the one proclaimed: full of grace by the angel of the Lord
the promise he made to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children for ever.
She is our spiritual Mother, .30 Carbine, she is His Mother, and the Almighty's most chaste spouse. It is scriptural.
Lastly:Jhn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Jhn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
He gave her to us, .30Carbine: John is us, and we must care for her rightful place and honor her.This is not worshipping her, however. V's wife
Well, cats can't love. What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :) V's wife.
And yet, again PM, Rev. 12, in my Bible and Yours. Those who profess the testimony of Jesus Christ, all of 'em, are identified as the children of Mary.
So? Are you one of us?
"Well, cats can't love. "
Your right. I should have said dogs!
"What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :)"
This is what I am getting at with the question. Why go to someone who loves you less to make an appeal to someone who loves you more?
Jesus is infinite God. He love you infinitely. Mary is fininte. She loves you infinitely less than Jesus. So why go to Mary to get to Jesus (never mind the fact that the Bible says there is one mediator between God and man)?
The Bible says that if we come by the blood of Jesus that we can boldly come to the throne of grace to find help in time of need. It doesn't say we need to come through Mary.
It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry. Thus He also created MAry to be the Mother of Jesus for this purpose. Jesus Christ IS TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN.
MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD.
And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!
******" It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry"
******"MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD."
Mary is not "Divine".
Divine means having the nature of or being a deity.
******"And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!"
As I have posted elsewhere: This is NOT an attack on Mary! I believe everything the Bible says about Mary - that she was a pure and humble haindmaden of the Lord, but nevertheless a sinner in need of a Savior.
My comments are a defense of the Mary of the Bible from those who wish to inflate her into some type of semi-divine, female Savior.
This reverence of her is from the very earliest days as attested to by the Christians of the Catacombs. Were these early believers wrong? They venerated her. I am tossing my coin with them. V's wife.
" It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. "
You see, they admit it right there. The rest of the commentary has no Biblical support (that's why they offer no references).
But it isn't the "Church" as in the RCC. It's the "Church" like the Remnant, the Messianic community stretching back into the OT.
It's the true Israel.
Yeaits what's beleived. WHat you think that when we are risen up, we are physically limited as in this earth?