Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:
Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done." - Hugh Nibley
Structure and Complexity of the Book of Mormon First Nephi gives us first a clear and vivid look at the world of Lehi, a citizen of Jerusalem but much at home in the general world of the New East of 600 B.C. Then it takes us to the desert, where Lehi and his family wander for eight years, doing all the things that wandering families in the desert should do. The manner of their crossing the ocean is described, as is the first settlement and hard pioneer life in the New World dealt with.... The book of Mosiah describes a coronation rite in all its details and presents extensive religious and political histories mixed in with a complicated background of exploration and colonization. The book of Alma is marked by long eschatological discourses and a remarkably full and circumstantial military history. The main theme of the book of Helaman is the undermining of society by moral decay and criminal conspiracy; the powerful essay on crime is carried into the next book, where the ultimate dissolution of the Nephite government is described.
Then comes the account of the great storm and earthquakes, in which the writer, ignoring a splendid opportunity for exaggeration, has as accurately depicted the typical behavior of the elements on such occasions as if he were copying out of a modern textbook on seismology.... [Soon] after the catastrophe, Jesus Christ appeared to the most pious sectaries who had gathered at the temple.
...Can anyone now imagine the terrifying prospect of confronting the Christian world of 1830 with the very words of Christ? ...
But the boldness of the thing is matched by the directness and nobility with which the preaching of the Savior and the organization of the church are described. After this comes a happy history and then the usual signs of decline and demoralization. The death-struggle of the Nephite civilization is described with due attention to all the complex factors that make up an exceedingly complicated but perfectly consistent picture of decline and fall. Only one who attempts to make a full outline of Book of Mormon history can begin to appreciate its immense complexity; and never once does the author get lost (as the student repeatedly does, picking his way out of one maze after another only with the greatest effort), and never once does he contradict himself. We should be glad to learn of any other like performance in the history of literature. - Hugh Nibley, Collected Works Vol. 8
The four types of biblical experts There are four kinds of biblical experts: At the very top are the professionals who have been doing biblical research all their adult lives. They are usually professors in leading universities in various fields that are related to the Bible such as archaeologists, historians, paleographers, professors of the Bible, and professors of Near Eastern languages and literature.
These people are the most credible of all biblical experts and do not let religious views get in the way of the truth. This is why a lot of them consider themselves to be nonbelievers in the modern Christian and Jewish faiths. Their reputation and standing in the academic community is very important to them. This causes them to be cautious and not rashly declare statements upon any subject without presenting verifiable proof for their claims. It is to them that encyclopedias, journals and universities go to for information. Their community is very small, but extremely influential in the secular world. One distinctive feature of this group is the difficulty outsiders face when reading their writings which causes them to be a fairly closed society.
The second group of biblical experts are those who have legitimate degrees and may have initially been in the first group but were spurned by the first group for being unreliable because they disregard demonstrable proof simply because their religious convictions teach otherwise. For them, their religion's teaching overrides real biblical research. Very few of them can be considered Fundamentalists.
The third group of biblical experts are the "biblical experts." These people disregard the works and conclusions of the first group, and view the second group as their mentors. Nearly all anti-Mormons who produce anti-Mormon paraphernalia fall into this group. Their views are purely theological and display ignorance of legitimate biblical studies. Their arguments are non-rational and are frequently sensational hype and empty rhetoric. These people are very vocal and constantly parade their "expertise" upon the unknowing masses by giving seminars in various churches and religious schools. Nearly all of them are Fundamentalists.
The fourth group of "biblical experts" are those who have never read the Bible completely and do not even know the history and contents of the Bible. They are completely reliant upon materials produced by the third group and may have five verses in the Bible memorized to quote at people they encounter (in nearly every instance John 3:16 and John 14:6 are included in these five verses) to give the impression they are experts in the Bible. They usually need the Table of Contents to find various biblical books and are extremely vocal in their condemnation of Mormonism. They personify the wise adage:
The less knowledge a man has, the more vocal he is about his expertise.
They read an anti-Mormon book and suddenly they're experts on Mormonism:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
The remainder of Christians are those who believe in the Bible but never read it. The Bible is a very complex book for most Christians and seems to possess a power that intimidates them. This is why a normal Christian is impressed whenever he or she encounters an individual who can quote scripture. It is this ignorance of the Bible that causes some to proclaim themselves "biblical experts."
I am not aware of anyone in the first group of biblical experts who are anti-Mormon. If anything, real biblical scholars who know Mormon theology have a profound sense of admiration for it and are usually astonished that so many facets of Mormonism reflect authentic biblical teachings.
They are frequently puzzled at how Joseph Smith could find out the real biblical teaching since modern Judaism and Christianity abandoned them thousands of years ago. Uniquely Mormon doctrines such as the anthropomorphic nature of God, the divine nature and deification potential of man, the plurality of deities, the divine sanction of polygamy, the fallacy of sola scriptura, the superiority of the charismatic leaders over the ecclesiastical leaders and their importance, the inconsequence of Original Sin because of the Atonement of Christ, the importance of contemporary revelation, and so forth are all original Jewish and Christian thought before they were abandoned mainly due to Greek philosophical influence.
Mormonism to these scholars is the only faith that preserves the characteristics of the early chosen people. This doesn’t mean these scholars believe Mormonism is the true religion, since their studies are on an intellectual level instead of a spiritual one.
On the other hand, the leaders of the anti-Mormon movement are nearly all in the third category with a couple in the second. Real biblical experts (who aren’t Mormon) and are in the first category normally refer to the “biblical experts” in the third group as the “know-nothings” or the “Fundamentalist know-nothings.” These terms aren’t completely derogatory, but are accurate descriptions of the knowledge of the “biblical experts” in the third group. Ed Watson - Mormonism: Faith of the 21st Century
Another good website is http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/
I was referred there by other mormons on FReeRepublic, so I assume it is "Church" approved.
That sight also has more in-depth answers than the official LDS website. That site is somewhat geared to investigators of the Church.
There is a diferents in teaching and poisoning the waters before one totally understands the whole meaning but the opposition love to muddy the waters and thans looks for the next calm to pool to stir up!
This is typical of ex LDS as your self and anti LDS!
Make scramble eggs so no one can be witness by the Holy Spirit if things are true or false and also for the Holy Spirit to teach one how things are so!
The opposition can not afford to let that happen!
It also pluzzing how one can entertain a concept of evolution and yet think this is troubling.
To me, something that is eternal doesn't degrade over time. My soul is eternal. God is eternal. To me, the spiritual is the true reality and the material is just illusion.
Thanks for that link as well...have saved it for further study...my, I am going to be busy, with lots to read and ponder...
>>She never knew that Mormons had a belief that man could
>>progress to becoming a god in the Celestial kingdom. How
>>do you feel about that andysandmikesmom?
WOW! CC you are positively Glowing that somebody may have been surprised by a rapid turn to unique doctrine!
Well, I answered the BOM question, Restornu seems to be taking the Biblical route, so why are we still being asked if we will deny what we are offering blatant support for? Forlorn hopes perhaps?
Nope, not trying to spring a trap. Just trying to get ya'll to be forthright about your beliefs.
I am also glad when I learn these thing it was a one on one with the Holy Spirit in the research and scripture studies!
No one was around to muddy the waters so I could have an objective view!
I had my bagage when I first got the Book of Mormon the plural marriage and black and the priesthood etc.
But in my quiet moments as I prayed pondered and asked the Lord to many question I had I got my answers from him!
It is a fact if one does not read their scriptures everyday or often enought they will loose their testamony!
Have you not read are replies or you don't want to acknowledge which is it?
Please list any post where I was less than honest and forthright in my posts.
I assume that this part in your post, regarding a support for evolution is directed towards me...I think you should be reminded that millions of folks who consider themselves as Christians, also support evolution, as an explantion of HOW God created the physical world, not WHY...
The discussion of support or non-support of evolution into this discussion concerning whether or not men can become gods truly makes no sense to me...these are two separate matters, both deserving of fuller discussion, one of which is always being carried out on the CREVO threads on FR...
What troubled me, was that I had just assumed that those who did not support the LDS faith, were not be fully correct in their assertions that those in the LDS faith, believed that men could become gods...seeing it on an official LDS site, I had to believe, that this is what members of the LDS faith believe...
If you want to discuss evolution, and how it relates to ones faith, there are many threads, which are just ripe for that discussion...and I have been involved in those as well..
But for now, I am concentrating on this thought that men can become 'gods'...
>>Have you not read our replies or you don't want to acknowledge which is it?
Of course not, They only want to "Muddy waters" as you said. They have not responded to the request for the plan in the Book of Mormon with so much as an ackknowledgement that it was posted.
Thanks. I figured if horses or horselike animals were til relatively recently a native species in America I would have heard about it before now.
Restornu, Coyoteman states that native horse remains in America are found at the latest in the Pleistocene, about 10,000 years before the events related in the BOM. Who are the archaeologists that you referred to who agree with you?
I've read Delphi's replies and he admitted that men can become gods. YOU said you had no idea where I got such ideas! I gave you the lds site, which you ignored.
Sorry, I've got to run. bbl
You said Mormon's belief is in one God. That's not quite true.......which you did admit to later.
bbl......sorry to be in a hurry. It's TV night at our house!
well we were born children of God what esle would we be?
***
Rom. 9: 26
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Gal. 3: 26
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (joint heir)
1 Jn. 3: 10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 Jn. 4: 4
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1 Jn. 5: 2
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
Thanks for the link. Oh my!!!!
So are you saying, that because we are born children of God, we can then become gods?...Just trying to understand here...
>>But for now, I am concentrating on this thought that men can become 'gods'...
Dogs have puppies that grow up to be Dogs, Geese have Goslings that become Geese, and Cats have Kittens which become Cats… If we are the Children of God, where in the world is this pattern broken? Is this world a type and a shadow of things to come, or not?
Buddhists believe that they can achieve nirvana by escaping the wheel of pain, thus becoming Gods. Jesus being the Son of man stated that he was the great “I AM” and the Jews tried to Stone him for it. The Phillip 2:5 and six says :
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
You should also realize that one who had the potential to become a god, became Satan instead. So potential is not all it’s cracked up to be, but this potential is why the worth of a soul is great in the sight of the lord.
Enjoy thinking, and praying about this, I think you will have an interesting talk with the Lord when you do.
So are you saying, that because we are born children of God, we can then become gods?...Just trying to understand here...
the Joy is knowing who we are small "g" we would never replace our Heavenly Father nor our Savior Jesus Christ but we could learn from now into the eons of eternity of all the wonderful things the Lord has to teach us!
i am sorry but I recent those who try to belittle this beautiful truth which the Holy Spirit can witness to your soul so much more than my words could it justic!
When I found out the Book of Mormon was true I jumped for JOY I was 38 years old and now I am 62 and still get chills think about it!
In a word, YES
Not that there isn't a lot more to it.
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