Posted on 05/04/2006 1:28:24 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan
First of all, when we look to Christian teaching on Homosexuality, we often start at the beginning in the Book of Genesis, whereby God created Adam and Eve, man and woman. When the Pharisees asked Christ whether or not it was lawful for a man to put away his wife, he answered them saying, “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female” (see Genesis 1:27; Matthew 19:4-6) and Christ added, “What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Remember, Marriage isn’t simply a sexual arrangement, but homosexuality is the ultimate corruption and perversion of God’s union of man and woman.
In Chapter 19, we learn of the destruction of two cities, Sodom (the word sodomy was derived from Sodom and the homosexual proclivities of that city) & Gomorrah, which was destroyed by God for their wickedness...their sexual immorality. The apostle Peter explained, “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly.” He added, “But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness...” (See II Peter 2:6;10) Jude too, explained, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, [homosexuality] are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Despite the Bible providing the absolute and clearest denunciation of homosexuality as a grave and horrible sin that led directly to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, by God himself, there are still some false Christians who deny the very example God gave and the very warnings of the apostles. As Jude pointed out, “...there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (See Jude 1:4) Witness people who, in the name of Christ no less, have the audacity, the arrogance, to brush it aside and indeed bastardize the faith claiming those that repent not, those that live day by day in sin, are without fault! In fact, as I’ll explain later, they curse those that speak the truth and deny Christ.
A further reading of Jude sheds even more light on the predicament. He says, “But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.” He continued, “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever .... To execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage. .... How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (See Jude, Chapter 1)
So faux Christians, often use the word love, and they use it most unlovingly to scold righteousness and truth. They use the word sparingly, in abstraction, without defining or explaining what love is for the only logical conclusion we can draw is that they use love as a shield to fend off those who would speak truthfully and confront sin, in this case homosexuality, as a transgression and an affront to God Almighty. John inform us of love: “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.” In other words obedience is love. He goes on, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” (I John 5:2-3) Those who disobey God, those that are wicked like the men of Sodom, are in open rebellion against God and they defy his commandments oblivious to his examples. The apostle Peter tells us, “For so is the will of God, that with well-doing ye may put to silence ignorance of foolish men...” (See I Peter 2:15) In the words of the Apostle Paul, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (II Timothy 2:15-16)
Those blasphemers, like high priced attorneys with silver tongues representing Satan, the “Father of lies,” display no self-control, they are conceited in their minds, and they turn away from Christianity. Paul foretold of them, “For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than of God; .... For this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (See II Timothy 3:2-7) He added, “ But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” (II Timothy 3:13).
Believe it or not, I’ve come across complainers and false accusers who take issue with my use of scripture. They seem confounded by the use of the inerrant, inspired word of God. They utter indignities and hiss like serpents preparing to strike and deliver a deadly blow of venom. Paul tells we should use to instruct righteousness and correct. “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ. All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (II Timothy 15-17)
I apologize to those that forget that I make no claim to perfection, that even I err, for I’m prone to make mistakes. I seek not to pleasure, to harass, and delight in the downfall of others. On the other hand, there is no toleration for evil, while sin may be forgiven, it isn’t something that may be taken lightly. Have no illusions that by turning from God, you risk eternal damnation. Jesus Christ spoke repeatedly of the hell fire that awaits those who don’t depart from iniquity. John proclaimed, “Whosoever comitteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (See I John 3:4-8) We are also instructed, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not his doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that abideth him God speed is a partaker of his evil deeds.” (II John 1:9-11) “Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:20)
Back to the sin of homosexuality, in the Book of Leviticus, it is regarded as an abomination by God and the Law went as far as to make it a capital offense. “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (See Leviticus 18:22) In Verse 26, God says, Ye shall therefore keep my statues and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you...” God couldn’t make it any clearer when he forbade homosexuality and roundly condemned it. We’re not instructed to be indifferent, or to turn a blind eye, and clearly this secular dogma about “inclusiveness” is anathema in obeying the Lord thy God!
I'll end in the New Testament, Paul , “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold truth in unrighteousness .... Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (See Romans 1:18-32)
I think you limit your perspective with that theory. Certainly the exes can shed some light on the pattern and thinking involved. But too often exes offer excuses which leads to over sympathizing with sin and even blaming outside things for something that starts as a sin of the heart. So I would disagree with the condition itself not being sin. Coveting is sin that manifests itself outwardly as greed, theft and things like that. Lust is a sin that manifests itself outwardly as sexual immorality, pornography, homosexuality etc. The line between an initial temptation and a sinful dwelling on the idea is crossed very early.
Many who get caught up in homosexuality do so not because of any inward attraction so much as they get caught up in a social group that practices it. Loneliness leads to keeping bad company leads to corrupting good morals. You bring up alcoholics. Good example. They don't crave alcohol until after the fact. That's is precisely what happens with some people who practice homosexuality.
You do a disservice to them by telling them the lust is not sin. They are not victims. They are sinners who need to grieve over their sin and repent. Being embarrassed and ashamed of it is a good thing. When others say, "that's disgusting" they are simply reacting to an obvious truth. Not everyone believes the gospel, but everyone can perceive that homosexuality is disgusting and unnatural. They are not hateful to say so. You would do well to have at least as much compassion for others as you do for homosexuals.
CCF is away for the weekend, so he is not here to defend himself.
I don't see that quoting the Bible is the same as advocating death. Let's wait and see what CCF says about it before any more assumptions. I accept what the Bible says about homosexuality, but I don't advocate death for homosexuality.
"You would do well to have at least as much compassion for others as you do for homosexuals."
O'h but I do. Lust is a sin. The state of homosexuality in and of itself is not sinful just as hetrosexuality in and of itself is not sinful. Someone can be homosexual and celibate. Do you see where I am coming from. It's in no way a defense of sin but an understanding.
I think you err in a fatal way by equating heterosexuality with homosexuality. Can you fathom claiming the state of mind of a rapist is not sinful in and of itself? How about someone attracted to children. I understand that is a very difficult thing to overcome (unfathomable to me). But the desire itself is sin.
Is it sin to desire your neighbors wife? Homosexual is a word like adulterer. You can't separate it from the act and even the desire.
How about this: is bestiality a state of being? What makes someone want to do that? You will never define it in terms of a Christian worldview if you insist on seeing it as an unsinful state of being.
Heterosexual is what all humans are. No one is homosexual. There is only the disordered desire, which is always a sin. Sin starts as a desire in the heart.
If it were a state it couldn't be overcome. So there is a contradiction. Can someone overcome heterosexuality? They can deal with lust and not act on it, but they are still hetersexual. I just have an issue with your premise because I think it is an obstacle by providing an exuse. There is no exuse for our sin. Compassion must be pure to be of real value. A broken and contrite heart is the point where all sinners start to have hope. I think the state-of-being theory hinders that goal.
exuse = excuse. I have no excuse for my sloppy typing.
My compassion is stronger for the innocent than for the guilty. That means I mourn for the kids who have to be subjected to this subject endlessly just because the government requires their attendance at school. I grieve for the children who are adopted by homsexual couples and have no chance to even develop a normal, strong moral character or concept of right and wrong. I hurt for the family members of those who choose to live in this sin, because they are often corrupted and desensitized by constant exposure to it, and by society's constant demand that they be "loving," which really means that they celebrate it as a normal diversity. If they aren't corrupted too, they are left scorned by a society that has it's values turned upside-down. My strongest compassion is for them, the ones trying to hold onto what is good, moral and roght. I feel for the parents who are pressured to not instruct their children in the way they should go on this subject. I stay awake thinking of the kids in government social services who receive these lessons in perversity as part of their counseling sessions. It's not that I have no sympathy for the sins of the homosexual, particularly those who came on this sinful desire through over-exposure to it themselves, or worse, through being sexually abused as children. I have tremendous sympathies for some of those. But I have way less sympathy for those out and proud and selling it to other innocents. And even less (yes even less) for those who claim the name of Christ while they scornfully condemn the few truth speakers left in the world.
We are all born heterosexual. Biological fact.
Homosexuality is an abnormal state/condition of heterosexuality.
Feelings associated with an 'abnormal' state or condition very definitely can be overcome. All feelings are rooted in behavior and all behaviors can change with the desire to change. Alcoholics, drug addicts, gambling addicts, same sex attracted, beastail attracted, incetuous etc., etc. are all abnormal states/conditions. The abnormal feelings associated with them CAN be overcome with the desire to overcome them. Not easy though.
An understanding heart through the grace of God can overcome anything.
My Compassion and prayers are for all, especially those who are greatly burdened - no matter the gravity of their sin. I do not agree with many, many, many things they say and do [judging the actions wrong]... but I remind myself often, God is to judge their hearts, not me.
It's a fine line for "good" sinners, "us", and the "bad" sinners, "those gays" etc.” [tongue n' cheek]
Christ said He came for the unrighteous not just the righteous.
I'm one of the rare ones whose body started changing. I'm 48, a biological father of a wonderful little son, now nearly 5, but my medical records now show me as female because no male can have the blood chemistry I have, and I look just like any other middle-aged woman to anyone except a gynacologist.
Regardless of your problems, you are obviously a heterosexual male or you wouldn't be the biological father of a son.
I have no problem making an exception for those who are confused because of some of the conditions such as you describe. It is an error, however, to redefine normal becasue of extremely rare aberrations. Sin is a disease of the heart that manifests itself in actions. To drudge up rare medical disorders as an excuse for much more common sins of the heart is to block the soul from the one true answer that can heal. They need to grieve over their sins and repent. They need to accept full responsibility for their actions and wrong desires. That's tough when everyone is telling them it's not their fault.
My niece would have laughed at the notion that her homsexual behavior was driven by a "condition" or "state" of being. It was entirely a social thing for her -- a choice. Like many other wrong behaviors she participated in, it started with a deviant social group. The sin was 100% her fault, not theirs, but that was the driving force that started it all. That plus a spirit of rebellion and the lack of a strong conscience or moral character. She freely said she didn't like sex much with men or women -- and she would know because she had plenty of both. She knew it wasn't about a problem with disordered sexual desire. But she didn't accept that it was a sin, either. Her problem was 100% spiritual. Strapping her with nonsense therapy where she was told it wasn't her fault would have hindered her, not helped.
If you want to say I over generalized then I will accept the charge, though I think the generalization is highly accurate. (I would say all kittens have two eyes even though one was recently born with three eyes.) There are rarities that leave a person understandably confused. But you are doing something worse than I did. You are generalizing in reverse -- applying extremely rare cases to the majority, and denying the proper treatment for the clear diagnosis of a sinful heart, just to make yourself feel better. Let them get the help they need. And let God shape your character through your adversities.
In this thread (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1591827/posts), CCF states that we in America should begin executing homosexuals. (long read...there are 400 replies)
He also compared Eric Rudolph's attempted murder of an abortionist to a "hero" who might have taken out Adolph Hitler.
Best I could tell, CCF is all talk and no action. I doubt whether he has ever killed a homosexual (or even beaten one up).
Regardless, his claim that executing homosexuals is a "Christian" and "American" thing to do is damaging to real Christians and real Americans. Plus, he makes Fred Phelps look like a lightweight.
Homosexuality is a sin, no doubt. But there are lots of sins. If we kill everyone in America who ever violated Levitical law, how many would be left?
>>>That was a cheap shot. CCF never said we should kill them. <<<
On this thread (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1591827/posts), CCF claims that we in America should begin executing homosexuals.
I strongly disagree. And I hope you do too.
Agreed. I stand corrected.
To not be clear on which gender you are does not establish that you are both. Nor does it prove that anyone is homoexual. There is no such thing as homosexual. There are heterosexuals with sinful, aberrant behavior and desires. There are heterosexuals with physcial abnormalities, some of which can cause them to be confused. The first is far more common than the last, and they are entitled to the only truth that can set them free.
Do you like that any better?
Yes I stronly disagree with the statement. I hold out for proof, however, that CCF said it.
Honestly, I've said my peace on this thread. Sinners NEED to accept their guilt before God. Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. If you're not guilty, the gospel is not for you. That's my thesis. My strong sub-point is that in an effort to prove ourselves "loving" to sinners, Christians sometimes harm innocent people on the peripherals of the issue. We harm them deeply. I've seen it. My sympathies are stronger with those who got dragged into this issue through no choice of their own -- and are stuck with it. Especially when those people are children. The errant homosexuals need mercy, but they are also the ones in control. They should feel shame for wrong behavior and desires, and they should also grieve for the people in their lives who are hurt because of this. It bugs me when the sympathies are so one-sided, and the innocent are asked to repent while the guilty are given an excuse.
That statement is in error (I don't get the tongue n' cheek part), weakened by postmodern thought. Yes, we are all sinners. But no, we are not all guilty of everything, and all is not equal. One sin doesn't excuse another sin, and the fact that we are all sinners leaves us all guilty, not all innocent. It does nothing to cure the problem of the heart, nor does it make any one sinner less guilty of his particular sin.
Your statement reminds me of the way liberals talk about the issue of terrorism. There is clear guilt and innocence on the issue of terrorism. That's not to say that we are perfect. But there is plenty of clarity between good and evil, right and wrong, for a judgment to be made. It helps no one to blame the innocent. In fact, it only emboldens the guilty.
The problem with forming your diagnosis entirely around the testimony of the sinner is that it ignores the big theological picture. Sinners rarely think they are to blame. Go counsel prisoners and find out how many think they are actually guilty of the crime for which they were convicted by a jury. They're in good company. Eve said, it's the serpent who tricked me. Adam said, it's the woman that you gave me. We all love to blame others. Notice that the ultimate blame always goes back to God.
Imagine if therapists and lawyers were around when Adam and Eve sinned. God would be sued and the therapists would give testimony against Him, charging Him with unfair judgment.
No, the sinner rarely takes the blame. So beware of drawing your fundamental conclusions from them. Gain, insight, but get your wisdom from Scripture, at least if it's a Christian solution you seek. Accepting your own guilt is essential. God will not ignore a broken and contrite heart. We must first see our own spiritual bankruptcy before the gospel message can take root.
After they begin to deal with their own sinful hearts, some apologies to those who have been hurt by their sin would also be great. Send them out to confess their sins to those they've harmed and to apologize. Now that would be some testimony, and it would go a long way to helping right their wrongs -- a lot further than preaching about how it wasn't really their fault to begin with. Telling school children they have a choice is NOT the answer. You will confuse more than you set straight. Broaden your scope a little.
While I apply this to the sin of homosexuality, every sinner everywhere needs to examine himself and face his own guilt -- not other people's guilt. We should have mercy on other sinners -- especially those who admit their guilt -- but always with the clarity of God's truth, never allowing the fact that we all have a sin problem to blur the lines and provide exuses.
I don't have time to check out the link, maybe later. If CCF said or thinks that homosexuals should be executed merely for being homosexuals, of course I disagree.
But everyone who molests a child should be executed for child molestation, no matter what sex the perps or the victims, just as a mention.
I also don't consider anyone who murders abortion doctors a hero. ALthough abortion "doctors" are themselves murderers, the justice they deserve will have to be arranged by a higher order.
Try this link. I can get to the thread just fine.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1591827/posts
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