Bosnian bishop urges Medjugorje visionaries to stop claims

Catholic News Service ^ | July 6, 2006 | Simon Caldwell

[NYer]

LONDON (CNS) -- The bishop whose diocese includes the Bosnian village of Medjugorje has urged six alleged Marian visionaries to stop claiming that Mary has been visiting them for 25 years.

Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar-Duvno, Bosnia-Herzegovina, said the church "has not accepted, either as supernatural or as Marian, any of the apparitions" said to have been witnessed by a group of people from Medjugorje.

"As the local bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far throughout these last 25 years, the church has not confirmed a single apparition as authentically being the Madonna," he said. He then called on the alleged visionaries and "those persons behind the messages to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish."

"In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the church, by placing neither private apparitions nor private sayings before the official position of the church," he said.

"Our faith is a serious and responsible matter," he added. "The church is also a serious and responsible institution."

The bishop made his comments June 15 during a homily at a confirmation Mass in Medjugorje's St. James Church. The diocese published the homily in English and Italian July 3.

On June 25, thousands of pilgrims converged on Medjugorje to mark the 25th anniversary of the onset of the alleged apparitions.

Since June 24-25, 1981, the alleged visionaries together claim to have received more than 30,000 messages.

But Bishop Peric said in his homily that "so-called apparitions, messages, secrets and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing either authentic or established as truthful."

He said in February that Pope Benedict XVI expressed similar doubts when they discussed Medjugorje during the Bosnian bishops' visit to the Vatican.

Bishop Peric told the congregation that because the church did not accept the claims of the visionaries it was illicit for priests to "express their private views contrary to the official position" during Mass, in acts of popular piety or in the Catholic media.

He said Catholics were forbidden from making pilgrimages to Medjugorje if by such visits "they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions or if by undertaking them attempt to certify these apparitions."

Bishop Peric said his views, and those of his predecessor, Bishop Pavao Zanic, who was also opposed to the claims, were supported by the pope. He expressed appreciation to Popes Benedict and John Paul II, "who have always respected the judgments of the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, of the previous as well as the current bishop, regarding the so-called apparitions and messages of Medjugorje, all the while recognizing the Holy Father's right to give a final decision on these events."

He also warned his audience of a schism emerging in the region between the church and more than a dozen Franciscan brothers and priests who have been expelled by the generalate of the Order of Friars Minor in Rome because of their disobedience to the pope.

He said that the expelled Franciscans "have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely ... or they have assisted at invalid marriages."

Bishop Peric said he shared the view of Bishop Zanic that the visions and the Franciscan "schism," which began under Pope Paul VI in the 1970s, are linked.

Throughout the 1980s, Franciscan Father Jozo Zovko acted as "spiritual adviser" to the visionaries.

But three church commissions failed to find evidence to support their claims, and in 1991 the bishops of the former Yugoslavia declared that "it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations."

A short while later Father Zovko was stripped of his faculties to exercise any priestly functions by Bishop Zanic in a decree upheld by Bishop Peric.

[NYer]

What Marian apparitions have been recognized by ecclesiastical authorities?

There have been uncounted apparitions of Mary reported since the third century. Few have received recognition by the bishop of the diocese in which they occurred. Among those recognized are:

1531, Guadalupe, Mexico - On a hill outside Mexico City, the Blessed Mother appeared four times to a recent convert to Christianity, Juan Diego. Mary proclaimed herself "the Mother of the true God who gives life" and left her image permanently upon Diego's tilma or mantle.

1830, Paris, France - In the chapel of the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, Mary showed herself three times to novice Catherine Laboure (age 24). Laboure said she was commissioned by the Virgin to have the medal of the Immaculate Conception or "Miraculous Medal" made in order to spread devotion to Our Lady.

1846, La Salette, France - Six thousand feet up in the French Alps, Mary is believed to have come to Maximin Giraud (age 11) and Melanie Calvat (age 14) while they tended sheep. Her appearance in sorrow and tears called for conversion and penance for sins.

1858, Lourdes, France - At the Grotto of Massabielle, the Virgin showed herself 18 times to Bernadette Soubirous (age 14). Under the title "the Immaculate Conception," she called for penance and prayer for the conversion of sinners.

1871, Pontmain, France - Mary appeared on a farm to Eugene (age 10) and Joseph Barbadette (age 12) and Francoise Richer and Jeanne-Marie Lebosse, students at the nearby convent school. Mary's message was written on a banner that unfurled from her feet: "But pray my children. God will hear you in a short time. My Son allows Himself to be moved by compassion."

1879, Knock, County Mayo, Ireland - During a pouring rain, the figures of Mary, Joseph, John the Apostle and a lamb on a plain altar appeared over the gable of the village chapel, enveloped in a bright light. None of them spoke. At least 15 people, between the ages of 5 and 75, saw the apparition.

1917, Fatima, Portugal - While tending sheep, Lucia de Santos (age 10) and her two cousins, Francisco (age 9) and Jacinta Marto (age 7), reported six apparitions of Mary, who identified herself as "Our Lady of the Rosary." Mary urged prayer of the rosary, penance for the conversion of sinners and consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart.

1932-33, Beauraing, Belgium - Mary is believed to have come 33 times to the playground of a convent school to five children (ages 9-15), Andree and Gilberte Degeimbre and Albert, Fernande and Gilberte Voisin. Identifying herself as "the Immaculate Virgin" and "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven," she called for prayer for the conversion of sinners.

1933, Banneux, Belgium - In a garden behind the Beco family's cottage, the Blessed Mother is said to have appeared to Mariette Beco (age 11) eight times. Calling herself the "Virgin of the Poor," Mary promised to intercede for the poor, the sick and the suffering.

More recent apparitions include Akita, Japan, in 1984; Chontaleu, Nicaragua, in 1987; Kibeho, Rwanda, in 1988; and Betania, Venezuela.

[Pyro7480]

I have serious doubts about Medjugorje. Every single past apparition with a message, Our Lady appeared a limited number of times over a set period of time. This breaks smashes that general rule.

[Jaded]

It does seem rather alot, does it not? Maybe at first but then came the commercialization...

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I read something recently that said Father Groschel thought similarly....

[netmilsmom]

A curious thing happened.
I have a friend who is very spiritual and in fact is one of best Catholics I know. Very devoted to Our Holy Mother and was consecrated before I even knew what that was.

A friend of hers told her that one of the "seers" was coming to our area. They should go and see him. My friend went to the venue and got physically ill just about the time the "seer" was to take the stage. She had to walk out. After about an hour, she began to feel better and was about to go back in. People were coming out and she missed the talk. She feels that Our Lady was keeping her safe from the "seers" message.

She does not tell the story often, however when I told her my distain for the Medjugore hoax, she told me and said I was correct. I feel that there is something going on over there but none of it is from God.

[smpb]

You're right. There is a lot that is very fishy about the Medjugorje "apparitions". Not only the unbelievable loquacity of the supposed apparition, but a lot of what she says. Over the years the "apparition" has said some things that are hardly compatible with orthodox Catholicism, including some very latitudinarian things. Moreover the apparition has encouraged direct disobedience to bishops --- and not to bishops who were commanding anything wrong, but to reasonable directives. Indeed, the "visionaries" have repeatedly defied their own bishops. No Marian apparition that has ever been recognized by the Church has ever involved such defiance of Church authority. There were articles by a well-known conservative Catholic writer back in the 1980s (I cannot remember who it was at the moment) exposing some of the strange statements of the supposed apparition. One of the things I remember that is really goofy is that she gave a statistical breakdown of how many people went to Heaven directly, to Purgatory, and to Hell.
Jesus wouldn't tell the Apostles when they asked him how many would be saved, but the Medjugorje apparition is happy to tell us to three significant figures.

No doubt God has showered grace upon many who have believed in the apparitions there. Scripture tells us that God can make good to come out of evil. It is significant that the popes have all been very cool to the Medjugorje phenomenon.
And these are popes who have a strong Marian piety.

[NYer]

Interesting story!

I had a neighbor who was living a less than christian life. Someone invited her to Medjugorje. When she returned, she kicked out the boyfriend, and totally turned her life around. However, it didn't stop there. She became obsessed with the visionary messages. Within a year, she put her home up for sale, saying that Mary wanted her to move to Maryland. It was so bizarre.

[Ozone34]

I recall Father Malchi Martin's comments regarding Medjugorge. He was convinced for many reasons that the apparitions were luciferian in origin. He observed that in most legitimate Marian appearances, the seers reported details regarding the Blessed Virgin's feet, often covered with rose petals. No such pedal observations have been reported from Medjugorge leading him to suspect that the alleged apparition's clothing covered what were quite possibly cloven hoves!

This is a good resource, by the way:
http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/

[Aquinasfan]

He then called on the alleged visionaries and "those persons behind the messages to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish."

"In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the church, by placing neither private apparitions nor private sayings before the official position of the church," he said.

Obedience won't confirm the authenticity of the visions, but disobedience will demonstrate their falsity.

Catholics must submit to the authority of Christ's Church.

[netmilsmom]

When I speak to people who are into this hoax, they always say, "But look at the fruits."
When I bring up the number of people who have lost everything following this cult, it shuts them down.

I have an extremely traditional parish, as you know. People there are so into this, it's scary.

[Rutles4Ever]

Incredibly, the "Gospa" told the seers that most souls go to Purgatory when they die, the next most to hell, then the least to heaven. Which of course contradicts Jesus' own words in the Gospel:

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

[Dennis Paul Morony]

Good point, Rutles4Ever!

Especially when we read what you quoted from Matthew 7. Yet, even priests who write books about Medjugorgie, like one for whom I was a temporary Chaplains' Assistant years ago seem unable to discriminate too well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes some "seer" at Medjugorgie says something that sounds like it's right out of Alice in Fantasy Land.

In some cases it even sounds like one of those old time Manichaen religions, I think this one was called the "Bogomils," that was in the same geneneral area 700 years (or so) ago.

I remember some Italian guy who wrote books about "Don Camilo," an Italian village priest. When folks asked him years ago, in 1962 or so, why he had stopped writing his books he told them:

"I'm seeing too much mixing of hell and holy water in the Catholic Church here in Italy today, and I want no part of it."

Funny thing, this whole business of Medjugorgie started not too many years later, in nearby Yugoslavia, or so I THINK!

Dennis

[It's me]

How many visionaries have you read/heard about that have taken up a life of fame and fortune after/during their conversations with Our Lady?

Oh that's right, Francisco, Jacinta and Lucia of Fatima; Bernadette of Lourdes; Catherine Laboure of Paris after listening to Mary about the Miraculous Medal.





/s

[Gerish]

What a coincidence, I was thinking the same thing! It is said that the only part of the body the devil cannot manifest into human form is the feet.

[NYer]

When I speak to people who are into this hoax, they always say, "But look at the fruits."

Yes!! Once they have "bought the fruit", they are embarrased to say they were duped.

I have an extremely traditional parish, as you know. People there are so into this, it's scary.

Perhaps you can find some solid and supportive arguments to sway them, at this link.

APPARITIONS OF THE VIRGIN MARY

[nickcarraway]

Serious doubts? As far as the Church is concerned it's a settled issue. Unfortunately, the Vatican is not helping the local bishop put a rest to this, because they consider it to end with the local bishop. The only thing from this point on that would get the Vatican involved is a review AFTER the apparitions ended. Since these apparitions appear to be going on in perpetuity...

[marshmallow]

Twenty five years is a long time to perpetuate a fraud. Hoaxes usually start to fray at the edges and come apart long before this, especially when children/young adults are involved.

If this is a hoax, it's a darn good one.

[OpusatFR]

"I have serious doubts about Medjugorje..."

Me, too. One about the Lord, He and His messengers have an economy of speech. Words are precise.

[TotusTuus]

If this is a hoax, it's a darn good one.

The local Franciscans have everything to do with that. You would need to study the "Franciscan case" in this whole matter to understand what is really going on. Basically they have been disobedient to Rome concerning a settlement reached in the mid 70's whereby they refuse to give up parishes to the secular clergy under the Bishop.

The then children came around with a practical joke which the Franciscans ran with...

[DTA]

>>>>>>>>If this is a hoax, it's a darn good one.<<<<

There is a good reason for it. Medjugorje hoax was not created for financial gain only but for political reasons as well. Hercegovina region where it is situated was the place of the most horrendous crimes during the WWII.

Since April 10 1941 (creation of Nazi state of Croatia) Franciscans have instigated and personally took part in mass murder of Serb villagers of Orthoox faith in Herzegovina.

In one instance, in Shurmanci village, hundreds of villagers were thrown alive in pits and caves. Shurmanci crime scene is a stone thow from the site where sighting allegedly took place . Go figure.

Such savagery involving the RC priests has not been seen since conquest of South America.

Father Zovko, one of the chief creators of Medjugoje myth is a relative of another father Zovko, WWII war criminal.

All this was well known in Vatican and Vatican NEVER ackowledged Medjugorje.

Medjugorje is not only the worst case of criminal enterprise and racket, it is also a perfect case of Nazi revisionism guised as the expression of religious freedom.

MIllions of those who visited it, were used to whitewash Franciscan and Nazi crimes.

[netmilsmom]

Honestly, these fakes are so stuck in our parish that they were even brought up in my hubby's RCIA.

Way to win over searching Protestants. They think we border on idolotry with Mary anyway. These should not even be touched upon.

Two friends of mine were at a showing of "Lord of the Beans" at our parish. One lady is like me, the other is into all of these fakes. We gave this lady all the evidence we could on them. She dismissed them with a "I really believe." and it was left at that. Sad.

[smpb]

You are saying something I always suspected but was not sure of. Most of the accusations of Catholic complicity in the evils of the Nazi era are nonsense. But in the case of the Croatian Franciscans they are true. Some Franciscans took part in really horrible "ethnic cleansing" of Serbs and Jews. (One only has to read the book The Vatican in the Age of the Dictators --- which is very favorable to the popes of that era, and not some kind of hatchet job, as all these anti-Pius XII books are --- to know how wretched the crimes committed by some of the Franciscans in that region were.) Apparently there is a long history of the Franciscans in that region being out of control and disobedient to higher Church authority.

One should note that one person who has been shown to be completely innocent of such crimes was the late and great Cardinal Stepinac. At first, he was friendly to the Croatian puppet regime, seeing it in nationalist terms. But when he saw their true nature he became very outspoken both in public and in private in defense of the Serbs and Jews. The Tito regime tried to blacken his reputation with falsified evidence. But He has now been convincingly vindicated. Like the other great eastern European cardinals, Wyszinski in Poland and Mindszenty in Hungary Stepinac stood up to BOTH the Nazis and later the Communists.

[Biggirl]

NYer, biggirl again. Since I am trying to get back into Catholic devotion for Mary, do you have any info about the Medjugorie, pros and cons because I do not know outside of what I have read to come to any conclusion. In other words, I am very confused about this apparation of Mary. Thank-you. Take care.

[Biggirl]

See post number 24 please.

[NYer]

Since I am trying to get back into Catholic devotion for Mary, do you have any info about the Medjugorie, pros and cons because I do not know outside of what I have read to come to any conclusion.

Only the Holy Father may rule on the validity of an apparition. So far, no final ruling has been made with regard to Medjugorje but the Catholic bishop whose diocese includes the town of Medjugorje has warned that "something similar to a schism" has arisen at the parish church. The best suggestion would be to stick with approved apparitions like Fatima and Lourdes.

[Biggirl]

When I have read your posting, I was very suprised to have read about the Croatian Franciscans having done horrible things. I have always thought that the Franciscans have always been peaceful minded. The ones I know, in the capital city of my homestate, Hartford, CT, in a local parish in the downtown area are very wonderful folks living examples of Christ in downtown Hartford. They belong I believe to the branch of the Franciscans of the Holy Land. Thanks once again to the history information.

[Biggirl]

As it is said offten over at Spiritdaily.com, the words, "for your discernment". I do believe that when it comes to apparations, go with the approved ones and use your God-given discernment gifts.

[Biggirl]

I did get to bookmark the site about the apparations of Mary. Thank-you for that info.

[marshmallow]

Bogus apparitions have a way of fizzling. Take Bayside in New York, for example or Palma da Troya in Spain. Apart from a small clique of crackpots, these apparitions have no following and have completely disappeared off the radar. The same will happen to Medugorje if it falls into the same category.

There's a saying which I think is a useful measure of gauging apparitions. "Vox populi, vox Dei". What this means is that popular devotion will often give a verdict on an apparition before the Church officially pronounces. Lourdes and Fatima were cases in point. Both had a strong and devoted following before the Church officially ruled. The same often applies to saints and holy people. Padre Pio and Mother Teresa, for instance, were already well established in popular devotion before the Church officially ruled on their sanctity.

Before anyone raises the point, I'm well aware that this rule does not apply to Church dogma or teaching. However, with regard to supernatural happenings which do not form part of the deposit of faith such as apparitions and the sanctity of those whom we deem holy, it's often a good guide.

For this reason, I'm rather skeptical of the "practical joke" hypothesis. There are fakers and kooks all over America claiming to see Jesus or His Mother. They never achieve critical mass (no pun inteneded) nor accumulate a worldwide following as Medugorje has.

There's something supernatural happening there. And the basic message of "prayer and fasting" seems to me to be a gospel one.

Of course, I've been wrong before and will be again but that's just my 0.02. As always, I'm totally amenable to whatever the Church's official verdict is......if there ever is one.

[jane_finn]

Do you remember where you heard/read that, about the devil's feet? I've heard the same thing but I don't remember where it comes from.

[Biggirl]

I have gone to the archives of the Spiritdaily website and found article about the role of bishops who decide on the issues of the supernatural. Here is the URL :

http://www.spiritdaily.org/MHB%20editorials/churchdiscern.htm

[Gerish]

No sorry I can't. It was a book I was reading written by a priest who either performed or witnessed exorcisms. Unfortunately I can't remember the title.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Years ago I read a series of articles by E. Michael Jones (of Fidelity Magazine fame) exposing some very dicey underpinnings of the Medjugorje phenomenon.

As I remember it, he says it started out as a prank by the "visionaries," who were then young teens who had ducked out of a youth retreat to go smoke cigarettes. To avoid being reprimanded for playing hooky, they made up this story about the Blessed Mother appearing to them.

To the kids' surprise, people believed them and a spark of popular enthusiasm was lit.

After that, the Franciscans (who had been involved in an ecclesiastical power struggle with the local Bishop) inserted themselves into the situation as "managers," possibly telling the kids that they couldn't back out at this point or they would scandalize the simple pious people who believed them. So they should "make the best of it" by reporting nice, wholesome, marylike messages (families, should pray together, etc. etc.)

The Franciscans quickly grasped that this was a way to greatly boost their own prestige. They began to coach the kids on what to say, how to conduct themselves; they had videos made, organized publicity, set up tours, etc..

Mike Jones also brought in the historical significance to the Hill of Apparitions in relation to the Croatian Nazi atrocities. I don't remember all the details, but it was exceptionally ugly.

By the way, this does not reflect on "all Franciscans." This relates to a particular, nasty bunch who got away with WWII-era crimes for years partly because most "normal" people simply couldn't believe they could be guilty of such things. The mind resists. It seems almost literally unthinkable.

[nickcarraway]

Do you think it's a bad thing that this apparition is encouraging so many people to disobey the Pope and the Church? The Holy Father, since the time he was Cardinal Ratzinger, that NO Catholic is permitted to go to Medjugorje for the purpose of seeing this apparition. All these pilgrimages to Medjugorje are completely illicit.

Not only that, but the "messages" promote teachings contrary to the faith, like the fact that all religions are equally valid.

[PandaRosaMishima]

Have you read the book The Third Secret by Steve Berry? It mentions the Medjugorje visions, among other things, and tends to promote a rather contrary line.

[marshmallow]

I've seen nothing official from the former Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, prohibiting pilgrims from going to Medugorje. To the contrary, I've seen various articles saying that he has intervened favorably on its behalf. Specifically, that he informed the former Bishop Zanic to cease his negative media campaign over the apparitions and that he dissolved Bishop Zanic's commission and ordered the Yugoslav Bishop's Conference to set up a new one.

Do you have a source for your claim that he has forbidden Catholics to go to Medugorje?

[cammie]

Isn't that a fictional thriller?

[TotusTuus]

Vox populi, vox Dei as a gage for ascertaining the authenticitiy of alleged apparitions? I think one is traveling down overly simplistic ground when attempting this route. The voice of God, not always listened to, oftentimes is meant to scold His people to transform their hearts despite what their voices say. The CCC offers a better explanation concerning discernment of private revelations referring to the sensus fidelium guided by the magisterium of the Church.

Yes, bogus apparitions eventually will fizzle, but that doesn't mean they can't do damage along the way. Marpingen in Germany drew many more people to the site in the 1870's than Lourdes despite it's falsity. Garabandal, (which the Medjugorje "story" partly borrowed from, i.e. the "10 secrets") is still in process of fizzling (even Mother Angelica went there!). With regards to your examples concerning holy people, etc., the sensus fidelium never contradicted judgments of the magisterium, nor did the magisterium simply rubber state the sentiments of a bunch of people.

It is interesting that you mention that "There's something supernatural happening there." I say this since the official position of the Church (the Zadar statement) reads as 'non constat de supernaturalitate', but not 'constat de non supernaturalitate', though Mgr. Ratko Peric, the current Ordinary of Mostar, has stated he feels the second expression applies as well. I write this because the first statement leaves open the possibility of further inquiry for the investigation of demonic activity. At least that is all that I see as possible, since clearly the 'Gospa' is not appearing there based on what has been discovered in the three commissions which investigated the events (for a total of around 6-8 years).

It should be noted that the Holy See - contrary to what some have tried to deduce - has always supported the conclusions of the local Bishops and reference their statements as the official position of the Church. The Holy See is not investigating Medjugorje currently, nor is the local Bishop of Mostar, because they see no need to investigate further. What is the official position of the Church? Simple. There is and has been nothing supernatural happening at Medjugorje concerning apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Following, no official pilgrimages may be organized for "Our Lady of Medjugorje". Individuals may go there for whatever reasons, but the alleged events may not be preached from the pulpit.

The official magisterial position of the Church concerning these events has been every bit as clear as it has been ignored.

This is a quick answer coming from memory, but I have little doubt that if you were to research this further from official sources, you would quickly agree that these alleged events are false without a shred of doubt. I say this from having read your posts over the years, witnessing your knowledge, wisdom, and sobriety. If you could get a copy of the English translations of the close to 300 hours of taped interviews that the late Bishop Zanic, then Ordinary of Mostar, had with the then children at the beginning in 1981-83, that alone would convince you. The lies, contradictions, ridiculous statements allegedly made by the BVM, etc. A further study of the politics of the dispute between the Bosnian Franciscans against the secular clergy, etc. ( oh, I could go on and on and on...) - it reads as a tragicomedy. The practical joke hypothesis is not nearly as impossible as you suggest.

My $ 0.02 is this: Medugorje shares everything in common with every false apparition/miracle going back to Simon Magus, and nothing in common with all authenticate miraculous phenomena going back to the Patriarchs under the Old Law.

[TotusTuus]

Following is an official CDF letter from 1996. Note the 5th paragraph. The Church does not wish to prevent people from gathering to pray and celebrate the sacraments anywhere, Medjugorje included. What is at issue is this: Is Medjugorje to be considered an official shrine to venerate the BVM under the title of "Our Lady of Medjugorje" with official pilgrimages as is the case in places like Lourdes and Fatima?

March 1996: CDF letter to Bp. Taverdet

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Vatican City, March 23, 1996, Prot. No. 154/81-01985>p? Your Excellency,

In your letter of February 14, 1996 you inquired what is the present position of the Church regarding the alleged "apparitions in Medjugorje" and whether it is permitted to the Catholic faith to go there for pilgrimage.

In reference to that it is my honor to make known to you that, regarding the authenticity of the apparitions in question, the Bishops of the former Yugoslavia confirmed in their Declaration of April 10, 1991 published in Zadar:

". . .On the basis of investigation up till now it cannot be established that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who are coming to Medjugorje prompted both by motives of belief and certain other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the bishop of the diocese and of the other bishops with him so that in Medjugorje and everything related to it a healthy devotion toward the Blessed Virgin Mary would be promoted in conformity with the teaching of the Church.

For that purpose the bishops shall issue separate appropriate liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise by means of their Commission they shall further follow and investigate the total event in Medjugorje."

The result from this in what is precisely said is that official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level, because that would be in contradiction to what the Bishops of former Yugoslavia affirmed in their forementioned Declaration.

Kindly accept, your Excellency, an expression of my profoundly devoted affection!

+ Tarcisio Bertone

To the contrary, I've seen various articles saying that he has intervened favorably on its behalf. Specifically, that he informed the former Bishop Zanic to cease his negative media campaign over the apparitions and that he dissolved Bishop Zanic's commission and ordered the Yugoslav Bishop's Conference to set up a new one.

The problem here lies with the "various articles". Both statements are absolutely false. I really think that there are some people so taken in by Medjugorje that they are not willing to take an objective look at the evidence, much less official Church documents. Just do a google search of Medjugorje and see how many sites parrot off of each other - and when the info is wrong as in the above....

I am aware of only 5 written interventions of the Holy See concerning Medjugorje over the years, all of them coming from the CDF. The first in '85 whereby the Italian Bishops where asked to not organize official pilgrimages there. The second is above with the third being essentially the same letter to another Bishop. The fourth was a similar letter in '98 to I believe a German Bishop.

Finally a statement in '98 by the then Prefect of the CDF, who is our current Pope, that all the many statements attributed to either him or his Holiness Pope John Paul II, many of which were presented to him in memo form by some Germans, were "frei erfunden" "complete inventions" [I think that's right - it is document and official]

[TotusTuus]

I am not impressed with the "Spirit Daily" website and have found many errors on that site whenever I have been there. Clearly, it is very much a pro-Medjugorje site which leaves them twisting and stretching as in the article you posted. This is the danger of getting info off the internet. There are numerous errors I found in the paper you have linked.

For example, his statements concerning non constat supernaturalitis and constat non supernaturalitis are at best partly right, and his statements that the Bishop of Mostar's ability to rule on authenticity was removed by Rome is false. The paper - probably written a while ago - is incomplete. And it is incomplete in an obvious attempt to explain away all the negative judgments of the Church concerning Medjugorje which undoubtedly occurred in "future articles (or whatever)" mentioned at the end.

[Larry Lucido]

Maybe at first but then came the commercialization...

[marshmallow]

Regarding the letter of Cardinal Bertone of the CDF on the question of pilgrimages, I think this is entirely proper and is really just a question of correct legal procedure. In other words, if the Church has not yet given official approval to the apparitions, then it follows as a matter of correct protocol that pilgrimages cannot be organized in the name of the Church, either at the parochial or diocesan level, for to do so would convey a de facto approval of the apparition, when this has not yet been given. I see nothing negative in this declaration. The same goes for the other declarations of the CDF to other bishops' conferences. These are not statements of disapproval. Rather, they are requests for the following of correct protocol in these matters.

Significantly, however, the Church has done nothing to dissuade Catholics from going to Medugorje. It simply insists that its name not be used in an official capacity and requests that they be cared for pastorally.

Regarding the issue between the local bishop and the Franciscans, there is indeed a serious issue there. I don't see that this impinges on the validity of the apparition, one way or the other. On the one hand one could say that Satan loves to stir up trouble around sites of authentic apparitions as he has done in the past. On the other hand, one could say that that this shows that the Franciscans have a motive for some hanky panky and are simply orchestrating a fraud.

It should be noted that the Holy See - contrary to what some have tried to deduce - has always supported the conclusions of the local Bishops and reference their statements as the official position of the Church.

It has never contradicted the local bishops publicly. That's as far as it goes.

The Holy See is not investigating Medjugorje currently, nor is the local Bishop of Mostar, because they see no need to investigate further. What is the official position of the Church? Simple. There is and has been nothing supernatural happening at Medjugorje concerning apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

No. There is no official position of the Churcch and will not be until the apparitions cease. A more accurate statement would be "local investigative commissions find that there is no definitive evidence of any supernatural happenings". Again, this is not a statement of disapproval.

Bottom line: the Holy See is adopting a "wait and see" attitude to apparitions still in progress. Until the apparitions cease and they can be examined in toto, don't expect anything from the Holy See. It will never issue a thumbs up to apparitions still in progress for who knows what tomorrow's message might bring? A statement of outright heresy, possibly and any approval would look ridiculous and totally premature.

This not a settled issue and will not be until the Holy See issues a statement of approval or condemnation.

The local bishops can say what they want. So what? We have a bishop here in the US (Lynch, St. Petersburg) who says that it is not proper for Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament to take place in his diocese. Has the Holy See corrected him? Likewise, don't take its silence on Medugorje matters as approval of what the investigative commissions there have done or said.

[PandaRosaMishima]

It is; I recall it did incorporate the Medjugorje visions as part of its plot. The book itself is nonremarkable, mentioning them in connection with revising the Church.
Just curious, why is Medjugorje so controversial? What do the visions proclaim?
Are the visions on a level with seeing the Virgin on a tortilla and the like?
Just asking.

[cammie]

I've always thought them fairly credible -- I think the big issue that made many start to find them lacking credibility is that Mary allegedly said, in an apparition, that all religions were equally valid. I haven't been able to find any first-hand confirmation that the apparition actually included that message but I have to admit that I haven't looked all that hard, and I also would be suspect of any translation without knowing the typical use of the word in their native tongue.

Also there is an issue with fighting between the bishops and the Franciscans; most here believe the Franciscans are to blame, but I'm not so quick as I believe the original bishop, when the apparitions allegedly started, was a bit of a communist collaborator so I assume his opinions on the apparitions are suspect and he had a reason to not desire this to be true.

SO I guess I'm basically shrugging my shoulders at you...sorry not to have any better information.

[vox_freedom]

Written by Michael Davies (may he RIP)

Since the Second Vatican Council there has been a grave crisis of authority within the Catholic Church. The ordinary faithful have not received the firm and unequivocal teaching and guidance from their ecclesiastical superiors to which they had become accustomed. Cardinal Ratzinger has noted the extent to which individual bishops have abdicated their authority to national episcopal conferences which, only too often, have been manipulated into propagating the opinions of so-called theological experts of dubious orthodoxy. Parish priests frequently abdicated their authority to parish councils, and Rome itself has sometimes appeared to speak with an uncertain voice. But certainty is what the faithful seek, and when they do not receive it from the Magisterium they will seek it elsewhere. Some have sought certainty in the charismatic movement which, if examined objectively, renders the Magisterium unnecessary, for what need is there of a teaching authority when each individual Christian can communicate directly with the Holy Ghost?

Other Catholics have put their faith in one of the numerous apparitions which are allegedly taking place in many countries. Once again, if heavenly guidance can be communicated directly through the sect which is witnessing the alleged apparitions, then what need is there of a Magisterium? In the years following the Council a very clear pattern of behavior has emerged among supporters of these apparitions. It is a tendency to make belief in the authenticity of a particular apparition the criterion of orthodoxy. True Catholics believe in the apparitions, and the faith of those who do not is suspect in some way. Those drawn towards these apparitions tend to be conservative in outlook, the type of Catholic who might have been expected to defend the teaching of the Magisterium. Once such Catholics become "hooked" on an apparition all their efforts tend to be devoted to defending it and propagating it. They have thus been removed effectively from the battlefield for orthodoxy. There can be no doubt that spurious apparitions are one of Satan's most effective weapons in his war against the Mystical Body. The problem is, of course, to discern authentic from spurious apparitions. I certainly do not believe that any of the alleged apparitions taking place at present with the possible exception of Akita in Japan, possess a shred of credibility.

I recollect very clearly a decade or so ago that I scandalized some very devout friends by maintaining that the alleged apparitions at Palmar de Troya in Spain were inspired by the devil. I was asked how I could make such a claim in view of the piety manifested there-----all night vigils, heroic acts of penance, the Rosary, financial sacrifices of staggering proportions. I knew one devout and highly educated English Catholic who sold everything he had and abandoned his profession to go and live there. Later, when Clemente, the self-styled seer, proclaimed himself to be Pope and "excommunicated" everyone who did not recognize him, this friend and others withdrew from Palmar in horror and admitted that they had been deceived. But the tragedy is that there are thousands who did not. Their faith had become identified with the authenticity of the Palmar sect. Satan had amputated them from the Mystical Body. How can one reconcile the devotion that I have mentioned with diabolic inspiration? The answer should be self-evident. If a seer claiming to be inspired by Heaven denied the doctrine of the Trinity or advocated free love he would hardly be likely to deceive faithful Catholics. Satan will obviously seek to introduce error and separate the faithful from the Church under a veneer of piety.

Medjugorje

Several years ago I was visited by some good friends with a booklet in Croatian about some apparitions allegedly taking place at Medjugorje in Yugoslavia. They wished my wife, who is Croatian, to translate it. When I had been given a resume of the alleged messages I advised my wife not to waste a second of her time translating them as, in my opinion, they did not possess a vestige of credibility. I am glad to say that these friends now share my opinion. Since that time the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje have attracted more attention and more enthusiasm almost daily, and millions of Catholics now flock there from throughout the world. The initial opposition of the then communist government of Yugoslavia was transformed into an attitude of enthusiastic co-operation once it became clear that pilgrimages to Medjugorje provided an extremely lucrative source of foreign currency. It is obvious that the bishops and clergy of Yugoslavia have every reason to be predisposed in favor of Medjugorje. If the visions were authentic they would be a tremendous asset to the Church in a country with so many atheists and adherents of non-Catholic religions. Not only would the income from the pilgrimages benefit their poor country, but it would provide badly needed financial help for the Church. However, as Bishop Zanic explains later, only one of the Yugoslav bishops (Archbishop Franic of Split) has expressed belief in the apparitions, and not one of the hundred diocesan clergy in Hercegovina accepts them as authentic. Only two members of the 15 man Commission which examined the events at Medjugorje, accepted the authenticity of the visions (and they were both Franciscans). The Franciscans themselves are divided on the matter, but some of the most influential among them support the position of Bishop Zanic. Those who support the authenticity of the alleged apparitions have been quite unable to suggest any credible ulterior motive to explain the rejection of their authenticity by the clergy of every rank in Yugoslavia outside the Franciscan Order.

My object in this study is simply to show that there is a case against the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions, a viewpoint which has been kept from most Catholics due to the vast publicity campaign in favor of authenticity conducted in the mainstream Catholic media (which derives considerable financial benefits from Medjugorje advertising). It is not without significance that the Liberal Catholic journals which have not shown the least interest in the Fatima message are enthusiastic in their support of Medjugorje. I know that it was the view of the late Hamish Fraser that Medjugorje was a means being utilized by Satan to subvert the message of Fatima. [Emphasis added, here and below.]

Before providing documentation to prove the falsity of the alleged apparitions I will give just two examples of the degree of credibility which should be given to the self-styled "seers" of Medjugorje. The "seers" and their Franciscan manipulators have consistently maintained that during their "ecstasies" they are immobile and without communication with the outside world. A French journalist wished to test this claim, and while one "seer", Vicka, purported to be in ecstasy, he made a stabbing movement towards her eyes with his fingers. Vicka gave a start and threw her head backwards. Fortunately, the entire incident was filmed. The girl left the room and returned a few minutes later with one of her charismatic mentors, an expelled Franciscan. She claimed that at the moment the journalist made the movement she was witnessing an apparition of the Virgin Mary with the Child Jesus in her arms, and the Child slipped. "I made a movement to stop Him from falling. That's all."

There could hardly be a more evident case of outright lying. It is inconceivable that during an apparition of Our Lady with the Child Jesus, the Child could possibly slip. If, per impossible, this did happen, it is stretching coincidence beyond the bounds of credibility to be asked to believe that it happened at the precise moment the journalist made the movement towards Vicka's eyes, and, finally, if she had been speaking the truth she would have moved forwards towards the apparition and not backwards!

The second incident is documented in the 1990 statement by Mgr. Zanic which is printed in full in Sections 5-7. It concerns a Franciscan priest, Father Ivica Vego, who was dispensed from his vows and expelled from the Franciscan Order by a direct command of Pope John Paul II as a result of his immoral conduct, which involved the seduction of a nun, Sister Leopolda. When she became pregnant they both left the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. They now have two children. But prior to this he refused to accept his expulsion and continued to celebrate Mass, administer the Sacraments, and pass the time with his mistress. Why mention such a distasteful event? The reason is that the "seers" claimed that Our Lady appeared to them on thirteen occasions stating that Father Vego was innocent, that he was as entitled to celebrate Mass as any other priest, and that the bishop was harsh! Any reader with a true sense of being a Catholic, a sensus catholicus, will need to read no further to realize the full extent of the mendacity of the self-styled "seers", a mendacity which cannot be excused simply on the grounds that they have been manipulated by their Franciscan mentors. What credibility can be given to those who claim that the Mother of God told them repeatedly that an immoral priest, expelled from his order on the instructions of the Holy Father himself, is innocent. and that the Bishop who had taken the only course open to him, was the guilty party! And how does a so-called reputable theologian, such as Father Rene Laurentin. who has made a fortune from books on Medjugorje react when confronted with such facts? Mgr. Zanic gives us the answer. He begged the Bishop not to publish details of the incident. Mgr. Zanic tells us that this has been Laurentin's consistent position, to hide the truth and defend falsehood. Despite the fact that the truth about Ivica Vego can no longer be denied, his prayer book is still sold in Medjugorje and beyond in hundreds of thousands of copies!

One might add, almost as an afterthought, that if Our Lady had truly appeared at Medjugorje on about 26,000 occasions by the end of 1993, a claim which in itself defies credibility, she did not bother to warn the Croatian people of the coming onslaught, which they would have to undergo from fanatically anti-Catholic Serbia.

Documentation

1. MEDJUGORJE: The Other Side of the Coin, Geoffrey Lawman, p. 7
2. 1987 Communiqué of the Yugoslav Bishops Concerning the Facts of Medjugorje, p. 15
3. Declaration of the Bishop of Mostar Concerning Medjugorje
Medjugorje, 15 July 1987, p. 17
4. An Extract From the Letter of the Bishop of Mostar to Mariya Davies Thanking Her for Her Translation, p. 21
5. Visions in Alabama, Excerptedfrom "Letter from London", The Remnant, 31 March 1989, p. 22
6. Marija Pavlovic Contradicts Herself, p. 24
7. The Truth About Medjugorje-----A Statement by Mgr. Zanic Published in 1990, p. 27
8. Irish Bishops' Conference Statement of 13 June 1990, p. 49
9. "Bishops 'leaked' Ruling on Yugoslav Shrine, p. 49
10. "Rome Studies New Medjugorje Report", p. 51
11. The Medjugorje Industry , p. 51
12. A New Bishop of Mostar , p. 58
13. Further Information , p. 60

[marian-times.com]

Loose lips sink ships. Wow, this applied to uninformed individuals who have read Michael Davies and immediately believed it. It is being propogated like wildfire all over the net, costing millions of souls.

Michael Davies got most things completely wrong. All main detractors have simply jumped onto the Bishop of Mostar bandwagon. I'm not here to condemn members of the clergy, but how many people know the full story of Pavao Zanic and Ratko Peric? I'm telling you that every detractor from Michael Davies to Rick Salbato to Phil Kronzer etc etc has simply rehashed the same old Pavao Zanic and Ratko Peric stories. I am warning you guys not to be deceived by detractors. There is a deliberate campaign of deception and IT IS NOT COMING FROM MEDJUGORJE PROMOTERS.

The Wanderer publication admitted to printing complete fabrications about the Franciscans in Medjugorje, including plenty of vicious rumour. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Read here: http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/medjugorje-franciscans.cfm.

By the way, there is a new commission to be commenced on Medjugorje, instigated by the Vatican. Read more below:
http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/new-commission.cfm.

More information on Medjugorje and many articles answerint the same tired objections are given at http://www.marian-times.com/medjugorje.cfm .

[marian-times.com]

The Jean Louis incident (finger poke to the eye of Vicka) has been refuted and I bet very few people know it. Take a read of this.
http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/unity-publishing2.cfm#jeanlouis

[marian-times.com]

On the subject of so-called Fransiscan "disobedience", I invite you all to read "The Truth of the Herzegovina Affair" http://www.medjugorje.hr/eviktor.html.
Most of the disobedience (on BOTH sides I might add. The Bishops don't come off squeaky clean) happened LONG BEFORE the apparitions began at Medjugorje. Don't be fooled. Detractors try and connect dots to the apparitions themselves and discredit the apparitions because of it. There was rampant upheaval when Mary appeared. And this reminds me of the state of the world ANY time God has had to intervene.

[marian-times.com]

People, we have to look closely at people like Michael Jones (yes, may he rest in peace). Look at this extract.

"Several years ago I was visited by some good friends with a booklet in Croatian about some apparitions allegedly taking place at Medjugorje in Yugoslavia. They wished my wife, who is Croatian, to translate it. When I had been given a resume of the alleged messages I advised my wife not to waste a second of her time translating them as, in my opinion, they did not possess a vestige of credibility. I am glad to say that these friends now share my opinion."

He takes pride in having robbed his friends of hope. Worse, we can tell that he does not really care for their welfare, simply that "they now share MY opinion". He cares that people are listening to HIM.

What kind of man can conclude so many things in so ill-informed a manner and have the courage of his convictions to ignore the vatican's "wait-and-see" policy and step out on such a crusade. Maybe it was just bad timing for him because now most of his objections are quashed.

But damage is clearly evident. Atheists and unbelievers now have every excuse to steer away from religion because of the confusion and crap surrounding Medjugorje. Catholics are fighting catholics. This all sounds like Satan's wishlist. And I'm sorry to say, but certain people are being used as instruments for this cause of destroying Medjugorje.