Posted on 07/08/2006 9:23:38 AM PDT by WestTexasWend
By coincidence, a potentially historic speech about women that received little media fanfare was made two weeks before America's Episcopal Church elected Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori as its leader, the first female to head a branch of the international Anglican Communion.
The speaker was Cardinal Walter Kasper, the Vatican's top official on relations with non-Catholic Christians, addressing a private session with the Church of England's bishops and certain women priests.
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual leader of the 77 million Anglicans, invited Kasper to discuss the English church's projected move to allow women bishops. To date, only the United States, Canada and New Zealand have female Anglican bishops.
Official Catholic and Anglican negotiators have spent four decades working toward shared Communion and full recognition of each other's clergy and doctrine. Mincing no words, Kasper said that goal of restoring full relations "would realistically no longer exist" if Anglicanism's mother church in England consecrates women bishops.
"The shared partaking of the one Lord's table, which we long for so earnestly, would disappear into the far and ultimately unreachable distance. Instead of moving towards one another, we would coexist alongside one another," Kasper warned, though some cooperation would continue.
In the New Testament and throughout church history, Kasper explained, bishops have been "the sign and the instrument of unity" for local dioceses and Christianity worldwide. Thus, women bishops would be far more damaging than England's women priests.
This centrality of bishops also explains why within world Anglicanism there's far more upset about U.S. Episcopalians' consecration of an openly gay bishop than earlier ordinations of gay priests. But Kasper didn't repeat Rome's equally fervent opposition to gay clergy.
The cardinal said women bishops should be elevated only after "overwhelming consensus" is reached with Catholicism and like-minded Eastern Orthodoxy.
Anglicans cannot assume Catholicism will someday drop objections to female priests and bishops, Kasper said. "The Catholic Church is convinced that she has no right to do so."
Why? Casual Western onlookers might suppose Catholicism's stance is simple gender prejudice, but Kasper cited theological convictions that some Anglicans share.
The Vatican first explained its opposition to women priests in 1975 after then-Archbishop of Canterbury Donald Coggan notified Pope Paul VI that Anglicans overall saw "no fundamental objections in principle" to female clergy. That year, the Anglican Church of Canada authorized women priests, followed by U.S. Episcopalians in 1976.
Pope Paul's 1975 reply to Coggan said the gender ban honors "the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held" this fits "God's plan for his church."
That established basic points which were elaborated in a 1976 declaration from the Vatican's doctrine office and a 1994 apostolic letter from Pope John Paul II.
Before Paul's 1975 letter, Rome's Pontifical Biblical Commission reportedly voted 12-5 to advise privately, "It does not seem that the New Testament by itself alone will permit us to settle in a clear way" whether to permit female priests.
The commission examined numerous Bible passages. Yes, Jesus' 12 apostles were male, it said, and there's no New Testament evidence of women serving explicit priestly functions. However, women filled leadership posts and enjoyed high status. One was even considered an "apostle" if Junio or Junias (Romans 16:7) was female.
Protestants who forbid women clergy don't usually cite Jesus' choice of male apostles but rather 1 Timothy 2:12 ("I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent"). The Pontifical Commission said this scripture perhaps referred "only to certain concrete situations and abuses," not all women anytime and everywhere.
So the Pope isn't the head of the Catholic Church?
Then answer it.
Funny, I always believed in my heart that Christ was the head of the Church.
Here's a piece of history.... Luther was Catholic before he started his own religion after adding to the bible.
"And you are correct, Christ does lead His Church."
Glad to hear it. So when presented with a scripture that says to do this and when presented with the Pope that says to do that instead, who are you going to follow?
"Luther was Catholic before he started his own religion after adding to the bible."
But NYer used him in defense of 2nd Peter 1:20. Why?
And what about following the word before there was a Catholic Church?
Did not Constantine found the Catholic Church? That was much later than 33 AD wasn't it? Funny, I thought the Church was founded in the book of Acts? You know when Jesus Christ descended back to earth from heaven.
AUTHORITY - Should the Bible be the final authority of Christianity or the Church?
Well, Christ stated that the Church, NOT Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17) Christ did NOT state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The scripture says the 'scripture is the authority...In many cases, Paul wrote the scripture to the churches to establish rules and in the case of the Corinthians, Paul corrected them on many counts...And obviously churches disregard the scripture and make themselves the 'authority' instead of the scripture...Just as you are advocating...
In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, NOT Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as THE pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture.
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church...Paul is in the process of instructing the church...How could anyone get that wrong???
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Your post was so far out of context, it doesn't even make sense...And then Christ says:
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has no spot, wrinkle or blemish (Ephesians 5:27).
And why is this??? Because the church is perfect??? Of course not...
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Jesus took our sins...He gave us his righteousness...
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
As born again Christians, we have become sinless...Without spot or blemish...
The church is the bride of Christ...The question is; who or what is the church...
And the answer of course is:
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The church is; any and all sinners who got saved...Am I saved??? Sure am...Do I belong to your Church...Heavens NO...I belong to Christ's church...Which is the body of believers, not an organization, or a fancy building...
Christ also stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error?
So in your view the church at Corinth was the Catholic church...That answered that question...
The 'church' committing error has nothing to do with the gates of hell prevailing against it...Jesus Christ has the keys to the gates of Hell, not your church...
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
And the office of "apostle" is to be continued (Acts 1:20-26) to the present day.
You didn't find that in that Scripture...You made that up...
HEAD OF THE CHURCH - Is there to be a visible "head" of the Church here on earth? Well, as I established under the heading of "Organization," not all believers are to have the same authority or equality within the Church. Did the Apostles have the EXACT SAME authority amongst themselves. NO, they did not. For it was St. Peter alone that was the "rock" upon which Christ established His Church (Matthew 16:18). And it was St. Peter alone that was given the task of "feeding" Christ's sheep (John 21:15-17). Scripture clearly points out St. Peter as Christ's representative on earth. Christ did not ask the other Eleven to feed and tend His sheep. If you read The Acts Of The Apostles, it is clear that St. Peter leads the Apostles.
What then was the need for the other eleven Apostles??? Paul had rebuked Peter for teaching the wrong thing...That's quite an endorsement for the HEAD apostle, eh??? And then in Acts 15: 20-35 we can see where all of the apostles wrote letters and sent some of their own with Paul to correct the errors they made in teaching to the churches
Therefore, since the Apostles are to be replaced as they die (Acts 1:20-26), then it follows that whoever succeed(s) St. Peter is leader of the Church.
And that clearly would be the Apostle Paul...The mystery of the Church was given to Paul...Paul was given the responsibility of teaching the mystery of adoption to the Gentiles...
There is only to be one shepherd of the Church (John 10:16).
If you are implying that Peter is the one Shepherd, you need to leave Disneyland...
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
This is Jesus speaking, NOT Peter...
For the Apostles did not argue amongst themselves whether there was a "greatest" at all, but who amongst them was THE greatest (Mark 9:34; Luke 9:46).
Mar 9:34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Speaks for itself...
In conclusion, Scripture is pretty straightforward about the Church's role in salvation
In scripture, it's crystal clear that the church has NO role in salvation...Salvation is a personal issue between the sinner and Jesus Christ...And when that sinner accepts Christ as his Savior, that sinner becomes a member of the Church of God, the Body of Christ...
So in conclusion, here are some of the reason the Catholics says to stay clear of the Scriptures...And to not believe the Scripture, but believe the church...
That "labelling"? Well, you can respond to my post or, say "that labelling again." The choice is yours.
Your sarcasm aside; I don't speak for all Catholics of for the Catholic Church, but I certainly don't believe as you might think. After all, I have a brother who is a Protestant minister. And, I know many good Christians who are not Catholic, and that God knows who are his servants.
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